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Thread: The Civilised | Forums

  1. #71
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    Originally posted by leitmotiv:
    Apropos of this, I remember reading Sandberg's bio of Lincoln 37 years ago and was taken aback by the mortality rate of frontier women he noted, most of whom died in childbirth. Lincoln's mother died of "milk sickness" and he had a stepmother. His oldest sister died in childbirth. Even in our age it is hard enough to keep women alive, one of my childhood friends died suddenly of an antibiotic-resistant infection in her 20s, another friend nearly died from cancer recently, and several are constantly sick. Without the male's obliging to cash in his chips due to cigarettes, booze, overwork, wars, random violence, etc, starting at an early age (I consider it a miracle I made it beyond 20 I broke so many bones and took so many risks in my teens), there would not be so many widows around. Women are strange. Some are indestructible and others pass like butterflies at the end of their season. Two hundred years ago the attrition must have been brutal. Of the five sisters in my mother's family, one died in infancy, and two died before they were thirty. My mother made it to ninety-one only undone by a masterpiece of medical malpractice, and the baby sister is ninety-one.
    My grandmother (b 1880) on my mom's side had 14 children with only six surviving to adulthood, my grandmother on my dad's side had 11 siblings. 9 of them died in a flash flood when they were playing in a dry creek bed. I was told that the only reason that my grandmother and her little brother were alive is that they were too young to go down to the creek bed to play. My dad had six siblings, and only four, including my dad survived to adulthood. My mom had 8 kids, 1 dying around the mid 50's when he was 3 years old, and 2 were stillbirths. One of my dad's cousins told me that his father died from a ruptured spleen when he got slammed into a tree when he was breaking a horse. This was back in the early 1900's when current medicine couldn't take care of something like that, and he died a terrible death from what I heard.
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  2. #72
    Senior Member Pirschjaeger's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Messaschnitzel:
    For example, how would you classify me?
    Honest and having principles and conviction but ... outdated.

    If more people were like you the world would be a better place.
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  3. #73
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    Originally posted by M_Gunz:
    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Messaschnitzel:
    It could be argued that the Founding Father's concepts were to some degree flexible in that all men are created equal, unless they have dark skin. Those that do can be considered property that can be bought and sold. Back then only white men who were property owners had the right to vote, and it wasn't until 1850 that the law was changed where most (white men) could vote. Like Gunz wrote, it's hard to get businessmen to change the program where it involves their livelihood and where they are mainly the only ones who get to vote.
    Ben Franklin and some other northerners were active abolitionists even before 1790.

    Please note that slavery was never legal in the North. Also that any real change takes a lot of time. Find me historic moments that did not come about as the result of long term activities. So please don't paint all the Founding Fathers with the same brush, they had to work with the societies (note the plural) they were in and around at the time with the ways and means they had at the time. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I am aware of this. Also, I didn't intend to convey that all of the Founding Fathers were of a like mind. What I meant was that just like today, businessmen and businessmen/politicians will get in the way of progress if it f**ks with their livelihood or the status quo that is currently in their favor.
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  4. #74
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    Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Messaschnitzel:
    For example, how would you classify me?
    Honest and having principles and conviction but ... outdated. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

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  5. #75
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    Originally posted by ploughman:
    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M_Gunz:
    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ploughman:
    By the mid-18th Century the Divine Right of Kings had been on the back heel for quite some time where it was to matter to the inteligensia of the 13 Colonies. Whilst the the English Civil War and the 1649 regicide established parliament's ascendancy over the crown the Glorious Revolution of 1688/89 confirmed the backseat of the monarchy in the still young United Kingdom and affirmed the ascendancy of not only parliament but the nascient middle classes who were keen to establish a political paradigm in which they meant something. To European ancien regime's Britain was not only apostate at this time, it was also regicidally parliamentarian.
    Monarchy reigned elsewhere for quite some time. Let them eat cake. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Were the founding fathers Cajuns or Quebecois? No they weren't. You're point, whilst certainly factually valid is, nevetheless, irrelevant. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

    LOL! Look where the philosophers were from that the FF's took views from! Look where the colonists came from!
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