Third Person vs. First Person | Forums

**CaptainHarlock** · 01-29-2004, 08:36 AM

Now I know this has been discussed before but bear with me. Mind you that these are just the rantings of one person so take them with a grain of salt.....

There seems to be a whole debate about third person vs. first person perspective. I've seen it crop up here as well as other message boards. I think it does warrant some discussion.

Alot of people who play games like Rainbow Six and Ghost Recon will often scoff at the notion of the a third perspective. This has me confused. Why exactly is third person such a detriment to games like this?

One of the most prevelant reasons people often cite is that "Third person equals cheating". That assertion is based on the premise that you can peer around corners better with the wider field of vision that third person gives you. I do not believe that third person is a form of cheating. If you look up the word "Cheat" in the dictionary you will find the following defintion(s).....

1 : to deprive of something valuable by the use of deceit or fraud
2 : to influence or lead by deceit, trick, or artifice
3 : to elude or thwart by or as if by outwitting <cheat death>
intransitive senses
1 a : to practice fraud or trickery b : to violate rules dishonestly (as at cards or on an examination)

If third person is included as a feature in a game by the programmer then you are not engaging in anything malicious or underhanded. What it does give you is a slight "advantage". That advantage is available to everyone. Often at times it's not much of an advantage. What ever gains are made by third person are often nullified by the skill of the opposition.

Another common claim is that "The game is more realistic in first person". Well that might be true to a certain extent. However, nothing is going to be 100% realistic. Sights, sounds, smells can only be reproduced so well to a certain degree in a virtual environment.Nothing is going to be 100% realistic. For 100% realism then you might want to head down to your local recruiting office.

But probably the one argument that doesn't hold up that I've heard is "The game is SUPPOSED to be in first person". It is? There seems to be a rigidness in the gaming community, especially among PC gamers, that has led to a mindset of what psychologists call "function fixedness". Meaning that when you look at something you only see one use for it. Also I think that the popularity of games like Doom and Quake have made alot of developers complacent. Rather than stretching their imaginations, the same games seem to be recycled because they are easier to program. Just recycle an old game engine, make a few changes and PRESTO, a "new" game we can charge $49.99 for. Take a look at the PC game aisle in Best Buy. You'll see ALOT of the same types of games over and over. Again I think this comes back to "function fixedness". Developers only see one use for the PC as far as gaming while console developers are more free to be creative. This has led to market saturation in the PC game genre and sales as a result are declining according to a recent gamespot.com article.

I think that gamers and developers can combat this by not running from "change" but by embracing it. It wouldn't be the end of the world to think something as simple as a third person perspective as an option in a game would be a compromise to attract new gamers. I think certain segments the gaming community should also be willing to be more flexible. One thing is for sure the status quo can not be maintained for much longer.

With the recent addition a third person perspective the the upcoming "Theif Dark Shadows" game I think we are well are our way down the long road of change.

**CaptainHarlock** · 01-29-2004, 08:36 AM

Now I know this has been discussed before but bear with me. Mind you that these are just the rantings of one person so take them with a grain of salt.....

There seems to be a whole debate about third person vs. first person perspective. I've seen it crop up here as well as other message boards. I think it does warrant some discussion.

Alot of people who play games like Rainbow Six and Ghost Recon will often scoff at the notion of the a third perspective. This has me confused. Why exactly is third person such a detriment to games like this?

One of the most prevelant reasons people often cite is that "Third person equals cheating". That assertion is based on the premise that you can peer around corners better with the wider field of vision that third person gives you. I do not believe that third person is a form of cheating. If you look up the word "Cheat" in the dictionary you will find the following defintion(s).....

1 : to deprive of something valuable by the use of deceit or fraud
2 : to influence or lead by deceit, trick, or artifice
3 : to elude or thwart by or as if by outwitting <cheat death>
intransitive senses
1 a : to practice fraud or trickery b : to violate rules dishonestly (as at cards or on an examination)

If third person is included as a feature in a game by the programmer then you are not engaging in anything malicious or underhanded. What it does give you is a slight "advantage". That advantage is available to everyone. Often at times it's not much of an advantage. What ever gains are made by third person are often nullified by the skill of the opposition.

Another common claim is that "The game is more realistic in first person". Well that might be true to a certain extent. However, nothing is going to be 100% realistic. Sights, sounds, smells can only be reproduced so well to a certain degree in a virtual environment.Nothing is going to be 100% realistic. For 100% realism then you might want to head down to your local recruiting office.

But probably the one argument that doesn't hold up that I've heard is "The game is SUPPOSED to be in first person". It is? There seems to be a rigidness in the gaming community, especially among PC gamers, that has led to a mindset of what psychologists call "function fixedness". Meaning that when you look at something you only see one use for it. Also I think that the popularity of games like Doom and Quake have made alot of developers complacent. Rather than stretching their imaginations, the same games seem to be recycled because they are easier to program. Just recycle an old game engine, make a few changes and PRESTO, a "new" game we can charge $49.99 for. Take a look at the PC game aisle in Best Buy. You'll see ALOT of the same types of games over and over. Again I think this comes back to "function fixedness". Developers only see one use for the PC as far as gaming while console developers are more free to be creative. This has led to market saturation in the PC game genre and sales as a result are declining according to a recent gamespot.com article.

I think that gamers and developers can combat this by not running from "change" but by embracing it. It wouldn't be the end of the world to think something as simple as a third person perspective as an option in a game would be a compromise to attract new gamers. I think certain segments the gaming community should also be willing to be more flexible. One thing is for sure the status quo can not be maintained for much longer.

With the recent addition a third person perspective the the upcoming "Theif Dark Shadows" game I think we are well are our way down the long road of change.

**.BulletTooth.** · 01-29-2004, 08:48 AM

Not to be insulting or condescending, but check out Rogue Spear or the original Rainbow to see how 3rd-person affected those games. Ultimately it turned two great FPS into a less-enjoyable 3rd-person ala SOCOM... I know personally near the end of my Rogue Spear days, I was playing 90% in 3rd-person just to remain competitive with the other players out there

BulletTooth

Casey 'BulletTooth' Keefe
Community Manager - Tom Clancy
NAFCSC - SF Chapter

"This body holding me reminds me of my own mortality. Embrace this moment, remember we are eternal, all this pain is an illusion." -Maynard James Keenan

**MT_Bever** · 01-29-2004, 08:59 AM

if you think camping is bad enough now, just think if people had the option to look around the corner of a wall, too. 3rd person is pretty much the peeking glitch that patch 1.52 was supposed to fix. what's the difference between looking through walls than being able to see around them? in my opinion...3rd person was annoying and in rogue spear it was only used to look around walls and took the fun out of the game. that's why i loved sniping and only played on the bunkers map.

**.BulletTooth.** · 01-29-2004, 09:05 AM

Word. BTW, Bever, has anyone made a decent recreation of bunks for RVS? I remember on Platoon v2 there was one, but it had a HUGE plain across the middle. It was pretty fun but nothing like the original...

BulletTooth

Casey 'BulletTooth' Keefe
Community Manager - Tom Clancy
NAFCSC - SF Chapter

"This body holding me reminds me of my own mortality. Embrace this moment, remember we are eternal, all this pain is an illusion." -Maynard James Keenan

**MT_Bever** · 01-29-2004, 09:08 AM

that's the only one i'm aware of. i think it was made by Hunter Johney, or something of that sort. sniping just isn't the same in this game. in rogue you could peek a lot faster, you could strafe left and right with better accuracy (more fun). also, i think you run too slow in RvS. that's one of the biggest things i didn't like when i started playing. and another big factor is how the guns were changed to be more realistic. i loved the walther in rogue and i don't think i've even used a sniper rifle in my career playing RvS. RvS is just a more tactical game.

[This message was edited by MT_Bever on Thu January 29 2004 at 09:19 AM.]

**ZeroSniper0** · 01-29-2004, 09:19 AM

i wouldnt mind 3rd person view if it was the only view available in the game. if there is an option that allows 3rd and 1st, no 1 would use 1st because it doesnt give u an advantage that 3rd does. look at SOCOM II; the game was able 2 make a 3rd person game that every1 couldnt take advantage of. if ubi could do the same and patch up all of the glitches, then i would buy the game.

Combat Evolved...

[This message was edited by ZeroSniper0 on Thu January 29 2004 at 11:14 AM.]

**CaptainHarlock** · 01-29-2004, 11:09 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by BulletTooth.50:
Not to be insulting or condescending, but check out Rogue Spear or the original Rainbow to see how 3rd-person affected those games. Ultimately it turned two great FPS into a less-enjoyable 3rd-person ala SOCOM... I know personally near the end of my Rogue Spear days, I was playing 90% in 3rd-person just to remain competitive with the other players out there

BulletTooth
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You say "SOCOM" like it's a dirty word. SOCOM is not the enemy nor is it a "threat". To me it represents a different take on the military shooter. Yes it's more action oriented and it's not strictly a first person game. But the game seemed to strike a chord in alot of gamers who were looking for something that's fun to play and, more importantly, different than the countless first person online shooters out there.

You also have to remember that the original Rainbow Six is over seven years old. Now programmers are more skilled and can address certain problems that might have plagued a game like this. To be honest I never played the original Rainbow Six in first person.

Again if you read my first post, I think that there's this mindset of "these games have to be first person shooters end of story there can be no debate" is something that the PC/Shooter crowd really need to reconsider. It's something that's going to have to be grandfathered in over time. Rather than running from change, change should be embrace.

Like I said this is just the rantings of one person so take it with the proverbial grain of salt.

**.BulletTooth.** · 01-29-2004, 11:31 AM

Understood, Captain. I just used SOCOM as an example because as a gamer, I have played it and simply don't enjoy it

I am an FPS purist, but I did enjoy Freedom Fighters with its new take and am looking forward to Full Spectrum Warrior to see how that one is handled. Different strokes for different folks, I guess

BulletTooth

Casey 'BulletTooth' Keefe
Community Manager - Tom Clancy
NAFCSC - SF Chapter

"This body holding me reminds me of my own mortality. Embrace this moment, remember we are eternal, all this pain is an illusion." -Maynard James Keenan

**Juvi-** · 01-29-2004, 11:35 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by BulletTooth.50:
Word. BTW, Bever, has anyone made a decent recreation of bunks for RVS? I remember on Platoon v2 there was one, but it had a HUGE plain across the middle. It was pretty fun but nothing like the original...

Hey BT, if u go to www.rvsgaming.com and check out the maps in their download section, u can find a remake of the RS Bunkers. Theres a night version and a day version.

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