as much as the hardcore players hate them, how about shinny floaty things to show the causal player where to go to praticipate in the stack that can be turned off by the people that don't wan them.
ie something to indicate 'you're # 3' and when the breach happens arrows or markerss to show which way they are expected to go, then what arc they are covering?
Very good thread!
actually i would love to see a game which would gradually "teach" me how act as a member of a "real" hostage rescue team. this might be done by extended training maps with grading (to know how well i did) or - as DayGlow is suggesting - by certain hints in real maps (which you can turn off for more realism).
i must admit that i don't know much about programming AI. but it sounds plausible to me, that it's hard to program an AI which acts like real HRT when the player is playing rambo! ^^
but actually, i believe, that a lot of people who play R6 do this, because they like that feeling of beeing an HRT memeber (or SWAT or GSG9 or whatever).
it's all about balancing and finding a middle course. give them the feeling, that they learn to become a real "hero"... but don't ask to much of them!
OMG, i REALLY would love some kind of "close to real" HRT training in R6:5.
DreamMarine
None of the other Rainbow Six games reflected the pace specail forces move at. And to do so IMO would completely change the game. Do we want that?
In terms of the AI, I would love to see the game trying to teach people the basic tatics. A tactical shooter should IMO encourage people to use tactics, not just watch the AI do it.
To be honest, I dont want an AI character 1st into the room. The vast majority of the time I want to be in there 1st. I want to be doing the work. This is where I love the regiment. The ai follow you in and covers. It does its job without being spoon fed.
Maybe if more tactical shooters took this approach the following of this genre would increasingly become more capable.
What i feel important is the AI being consistant. If people dont trust the AI they wont use them. I never used the RVS AI to clear a room (Well I did once, and i learnt the leason they werent good enough).
I want to see the AI being good enough, and dynamic enough so the players have the option of using them. And training, even more detailed than the regiments. This would give the player the choice if he wanted to learn or not.
Its about time they started making tactical games that make you think.
Things like the game recognising your position in the squad, and adapting accordingly would be awesome. But when it comes to squad positions, you have to make sure the player knows his role as well.
Training should probably include a section on each position if they go for this.
So in short this kind of AI will require extensive training, and a lot of TLC from the devs. But imo if its pulled off it will be ground breaking.
________________
AIM: MrRelenquish
Xfire: Relenquish
Yep I agree with the original post.
I hate only being able to watch my team mates clear the room or do it myself (more or less).
The idea of taking up a position in the stack sounds great, although your right we may need floaty symbols. Especially because around confined doors (e.g. a corridor) the positions that the 1,2,3,4 etc man stands may be different to a door with loads of space around it. (play swat 4 to see this).
what you want is the game called The Regiment, itll teach exactly what and how to do it.Originally posted by DreamMarine:
Very good thread!
actually i would love to see a game which would gradually "teach" me how act as a member of a "real" hostage rescue team. this might be done by extended training maps with grading (to know how well i did) or - as DayGlow is suggesting - by certain hints in real maps (which you can turn off for more realism).
i must admit that i don't know much about programming AI. but it sounds plausible to me, that it's hard to program an AI which acts like real HRT when the player is playing rambo! ^^
but actually, i believe, that a lot of people who play R6 do this, because they like that feeling of beeing an HRT memeber (or SWAT or GSG9 or whatever).
it's all about balancing and finding a middle course. give them the feeling, that they learn to become a real "hero"... but don't ask to much of them!
OMG, i REALLY would love some kind of "close to real" HRT training in R6:5.
DreamMarine
Where Life had no meaning, death sometimes, had it's price. That is why the Bounty Hunters appeared.
what you want is the game called The Regiment, itll teach exactly what and how to do it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Originally posted by Yen Lo:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DreamMarine:
Very good thread!
actually i would love to see a game which would gradually "teach" me how act as a member of a "real" hostage rescue team. this might be done by extended training maps with grading (to know how well i did) or - as DayGlow is suggesting - by certain hints in real maps (which you can turn off for more realism).
i must admit that i don't know much about programming AI. but it sounds plausible to me, that it's hard to program an AI which acts like real HRT when the player is playing rambo! ^^
but actually, i believe, that a lot of people who play R6 do this, because they like that feeling of beeing an HRT memeber (or SWAT or GSG9 or whatever).
it's all about balancing and finding a middle course. give them the feeling, that they learn to become a real "hero"... but don't ask to much of them!
No! Not so far i have heard about it. In The Regiment I am forced in continuous fast action. Though that might be actually the reality, I very much prefer the gameplay of R6.
A good mixture of sneaking, breaching, sniping and rushing into the rooms, where hostages are held would perfectly work for me.
Besides, I love the overall feeling of R6 and the really great maps in the past!
OMG, i REALLY would love some kind of "close to real" HRT training in R6:5.
DreamMarine
No! Not so far I have heard about it. The regiment forces you into doing everything with high speed. Though that might be reality, I don't like that.
I prefer a good mixture of sneeking, sniping, breaching and finally rushing into a room where hostages are held. The gamesplay of R6 always felt just right. Of course, now it's time to continue and extend the original idea a bit.
The thing about the Regiment with regarding to AI is that you can decide who goes in first, but who ever does you need to trust the AI to clear their side of the room. It still involves the player to watch the AI's blind spot. It's not so generic and boring and you get the feel that your AI buddy is doing the job for you, as it's a two man job and there is kills for both of you.
DreamMarine I think you can do a mix of all, what The Regiment does is it makes you breah the building loud, as talks have ended, and to be honest there is no stealth option, if there was it would lose it's challenging gameplay. That said, that doesn't mean you couldn't have a stealth mission in R6-5.
What you have to ask yourself is do I want real world tactics and if so do i comrpomise them for another combat tactic? Certain situations call for different tactics, stealth, assault, sniping duties etc... As not every map requires a sniper, not all maps will require a full assault either but stealth. But... if that stealth is compromised, you need to change your tactics up a notch to full assault, which would be hard and fast CQB to adjust to the new situation. SWAT3 does this very well. Having a variety of maps for different situations, for a range of approaches for a map would be better then compromising real tactics. That then gives the player the option how to deal with the threats, if thats assaulting stealth or the odd sniping.
What I think would make a difference, back to that TR again is having the training level kinda like theirs, you can do it on co-op and learn how to trust your Ai/Human partner in, room clearing, target acquisition, the use of real world tactics. If they do that for each thing, like a sniping partner is the spotter, stealth the use of stealth and not being caught and full assault hard and fast CQB, it would give everyone new abilities and give them training scores where they can try again and again to get a better one, it's not only fun but gives them a vast range of knowledge at the same time.
Stealth LOL. Oh man. Still only comes down how you shoot. If you dont out shoot the competition people are gonna die, and you lose the misson. No game trains you better than TR PERIOD.
BTW NO, the game isnt perfect, yes tha AI still has its problems, and at least the Embassy map the rooms are pretty tight. Still its a heck of a challange.
Where Life had no meaning, death sometimes, had it's price. That is why the Bounty Hunters appeared.
As far as implimentation in team stacking goes...
I recently watched the MGS4 video, and in the beginning you see (from the FPS perspective) a squad of soldiers stack up and round a corner. The player in your view moves behind the soldier infront of him and taps his left shoulder. Apparently, this signals the go code and the two soldiers advance. It was a very short, very realistic, very COOL scene in the video (snake later owns the soldiers, hehe)...
Now, for RB6. I think something similar to this would be effective. The player should be involved in the breach, not just standing and watching.
This could be done by having the player issue a stack order. Once the team is stacked on the door, the player can move into one of several "Slots". This slot could possibly guide the player by drawing an on-HUD path for movement. The player then issues the order to strike, and he follows this path through the issued breach and clear order. The AI behind and around him would need to react realisticly to the player's actions. This means, if the player takes fire, then the AI teammates adjust their flanks, fire back and then readjust. Or should a team member die, the AI adjusts and fills in the missing slot, adjust flanks, etc.
This path line of course will be optional.
Now, this does not mean the player is locked to that path. He is guided by it, but not locked. He still has the freedom to walk out of it, or not join in the breach at all. Either way, the AI needs to react appropriately.
As you can see, AI is very important...
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Censor this, I'm speaking out.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Vert22110:
As far as implimentation in team stacking goes...
I recently watched the MGS4 video, and in the beginning you see (from the FPS perspective) a squad of soldiers stack up and round a corner. The player in your view moves behind the soldier infront of him and taps his left shoulder. Apparently, this signals the go code and the two soldiers advance. It was a very short, very realistic, very COOL scene in the video (snake later owns the soldiers, hehe)...
Yes that ROCKED!!! And its in a Console game for a platform thats still a ways away. Why cant we have this in this series. That video is awesome Ima go watch again lol.
Where Life had no meaning, death sometimes, had it's price. That is why the Bounty Hunters appeared.
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