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Thread: Comparison of HOMM VI with older versions | Forums

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  1. #1
    Hello all,
    I must say at the beginning I am pretty sad after some time spent by testing this newest version of this fantastic series...
    The game itself is quite boring, too few interesting places/things/events worth of map exploring/game playing.
    Boring towns with awful graphics! Little variability of heroes upgrade during the time! Really, really disappointed
    I must say that after a week of testing and telling myself - give it a chance, it can't be so bad I gave up and installed HOMM3 to get into a better mood...
    I just want to express my complete disappointment and feeling that the "older and the only true" Heroes are lost and will never be reborn.
    The header says - Comparison of HOMM VI with older versions, so please, if you feel the same or vice versa, try to contribute to this topic.
    My opinion is that the "true" Heroes saga ends with HOMM3 version.
    Or you have different opinion?
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  2. #2
    You may be being a little hard on the game, there is only one map (and it's a Heroes 2 map at that), this is a very small representation of the available adventure map items.

    I was playing Heroes 2 yesterday for a little nostalgia, and I must say I really miss the town screen, building a waterfall for my warlock castle, watching the bridge for my trolls appear over the river after working so hard to get the ore needed.

    One thing I do like in the new version, is not having the AI blast my armies with hit and runs. I lost likely a months worth of troops in one chain lightning. In H6 my Implosion spell (REQ LVL 15) did only marginally better damage then Lightning did at aprox 425 lit to 475 imp. considering lightning is easy to obtain I think Imp should be stronger.

    Gold was really hard to come by in Heroes 2 and 4 so rushing my dwellings wasn't necessarily a good idea, at one point I couldn't afford a large portion of the troops available once I paid for my level 7's. Castles produced 1000 gold per turn, 250 with a statue, and 500 for warlocks with a dungeon. Yet a Black Dragon cost 4000 gold and 2 sulfur you produce 3 per week, that means the average warlock town earns 12,250 gold per week, and spends 12,0000 on Dragons (assuming you find a second sulfur mine. I like that, I find I have entirely too much money in Heroes VI.

    During my most recent game on Heroes two I had two fully build towns, my main hero would attack and be slaugtered by magic but still win or retreat the battle, then he would swap armies with the second type army and continue the fight. This will not happen in Heroes VI, if you lose the main battle you are pretty much done as you don't have reserved available to you. This could be mitigated with proper planning though. from Experiance the AI doesn't plan properly though, nearly all towns are taken empty and his main hero has all the troops.

    I think we should give the game a chance though, who knows. with a proper map designed to Heroes VI's strengths it could be good.
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  3. #3
    Junior Member MwazZ's Avatar
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    Whats up with everyone missing the town screens? I don't miss them one bit! I've only played the second and third of the games properly though, threw away the fourth with no hesitation. Tried the fifth game and didn't like it one bit.

    I agree to some extent - the third game WAS the best one. But I feel this one can make a difference.

    The thing I miss the most are useful spells. Lots of them. And not a cooldown, just a limit to one spell/turn.
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  4. #4
    What I miss about the old games are the spells as well. I understand that this game is focused on the hero development...which is fine. We can work with that angle. I propose:

    Mage Guilds are purchased one time only like the marketplace. Inside is a sage of that faction (Stronghold would have to get creative) who has knowledge of many different spell acquired throughout his/her lifetime (this is where the randomness of the old mage guild system comes into play).

    The Sage will not know all spells, will focus mainly on spells that make sense for that faction, i.e. inferno/fire, sanctuary/water. Being the entrepreneur that he/she is they will charge you for teaching of spells. Also, being good stewards of magic...they will require you be somewhat adept before granting you access to their knowledge.

    This is where I am hazy on how it should be implemented. It could be done a number of ways:
    1. Skill points invested in the different schools of magic unlock the spells in that school (e.g. tier 2/1pt invested in thunderclap unlocks all tier 2 spells for air magic that the sage knows of)
    2. All tier 1 spells are fair game w/ an ala carte type approach. The skill tree would focus on altering the way spells are used (immolation, lingering flames, etc) and more powerful spells are available for purchase at checkpoints (3,5,7,9 points invested)

    In addition, like the pyramids in H3, there could be Yoda like dudes hidden in the adventure map w/ epic spells that were thought to be lost (implosion, armageddon) or whatever that would require a quest or a ton of resources. I want to add to the RP experience that Ubihole is going for. The current way they are doing it is unimaginative and could be so so so much better.

    Last thing on magic. Basic, advanced, expert. I like the idea of keeping this around, but instead of pre-reqs to acquire spells they alter the way the spells are deployed. For instance, ice armor: spell only +def add chill effect, basic +def add chill effect and does cold dmg for based on magic power, expert +def +chilled effect to all adjacent enemies, and cold dmg based on magic power.

    I'm sure this was way too long and disjointed, but I'd like to see this game come out the right way and it is way too close to release and way too far off the mark IMHO. And I'm not talking about minor tweaks and bugs. The gameplay is not HEROES. I miss Heroes 3 as well
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  5. #5
    If I have to be honest, I think this game has A LOT of potential.

    Town screens, randomness, magic guilds, easy-to-understand-primary-skills, lvl 1 to 7 creatures have all gone but who says there aren't other positive aspects in the game?

    Reputation is one of the things I consider positive and I really hope they improve this mechanic, to not just make you able to use 2 more faction skills and increase the effectiveness of skills/spells but also to unlock new ones.
    Area control, immediate-board-on-boat (it was annoying to w8 1 turn), talent-tree-combos and convertion are all things I think are positive, but everything is still not set in stone and might change.

    So to give an exact opinion about H6 I'll w8 till September, when the final version is done.
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  6. #6
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    Well, well, well. How soon we all forget. The natural progression of any game is through years of hard work. The natural progression of any series is through years of hard work AND CHANGE. HoMM VI is not repeating or regurgitating previous Heroes games (unlike many other designers who hit on a successful formula and that's it). It is changing into something different, which granted, may or may not be to everyone's taste. Each game in the series (including the original unofficial entry - King's Bounty) has its fans and detractors, its pros and cons. But to say that this game is screwed based on a limited play of 4 scenarios and a sub-standard beta (lets call it Beta 1.0) shows a decided lack of foresight, loyalty and patience.

    Sorceress wrote 'As a Developer has stated on this Forum, a few weeks ago, the beta-build we have been playing since 28 June is far behind what the internal testers at Black Hole have access to, throughout July.'

    My answer to this as a fan and long long time player is this - by observing the playing process from us the fans, and seeing how we comment, what we say needs work and change and then implement some of those changes. The patch addresses a number of these issues but is it really a patch, or is it an update to Beta 2.0 (of say 3 or 4 possible updates). It shows the developers that they are on the right path (at least for the majority) to creating an interesting and, against many comments across the forum threads, strategic/tactical change to what has come before.

    I for one have no problem with this strategy on their part (if I am right - and if I was a developer then this is probably how I would do it; it shows that I was prepared to address issues brought up by the gaming community).

    And yes, magic is underpowered, some of the factions need balancing but on the whole, the game works. But the skill system works, the spell selection works (how many times did you bemoan the fact that in 6 mage guilds that you built, none of them contain slow or haste - or resurrection ) for that matter. At least now, the choice is yours. The cool down on skills and spells need to stay - its stops spam attacks with no imagination (icebolt, icebolt, icebolt, icebolt etc).

    Finally to quote Blackpanther09 above - 'The gameplay is not HEROES'. No it isn't - its a new imagining and one that myself and a number of friends (also long time players) are eagerly waiting to explore further. If we wanted to play a version of another Heroes game then we would just reinstall it. But do not erase the possibility that this game may be something exceptional once completed, and not base your opinion on Beta 1.0 (which is also . . . . not completed) or the difference in mechanics (gameplay, strategy, tactics) from the other Heroes games. Base your opinion on how much enjoyment you get from playing the game (full or otherwise)
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  7. #7
    I'd like to reply to Daltric. I also, have no opposition to change. I enjoyed H4 even though they drastically altered the game from H3 (commanders, caravans, creature upgrades, etc). There is nothing wrong with reinventing a game as long as it works. My basic problem w/ this game is how unimaginative it is.

    1-town screens are a lame video window w/ no real depth to the city you are building
    2-town conversion...seriously?! Instantly converting a town for little resource cost. At least make it a reputation choice. Raze the town for a large blood reward or pay the people off for a small tears reward and a sizable resource cost
    3-This game is focused on hero development. So many tweaks could be made to emphasive and enhance this. Short pep talks before the battle (Shogun 2) parley w/ the enemy, close-ups on some of the more powerful / critical hits
    4-town portal...ok some people really like this, but it is so so lame. Whole strategies surrounded themselves on whether or not you obtained this spell in H3. As it currently stands this device is super lame. At least make it a lvl req't or push it up the tier chain and add some pre-reqs.

    5-Creature growth; I don't know if this is a balance issue that they still have to sort out but it seems like a design choice to me. I think they are trying to push a faster paced game and decided to speed up the creature growth. Have you noticed how fast you can acquire core creatures and how strong they are relative to elites? There is almost no incentive to buying elites when all you need to do is snatch a couple core creature dwellings and spam shark warriors (resurrect them via the coral priestess...super lame)

    Final thought-Why is death not permanent in this game? The idea that everything can be resurrected really bothers me as a long-time RPG player. Death should have consequences, but the way they structured the creatures stats it forces resurrection as a combat tactic. Is anyone else really bothered by the lack of death permanence? Also, resurrecting the same hero that died on the same turn??

    I'm not saying that I dislike this game...it just seems that they took some shortcuts to create a fast-paced, heart thumping heroes...and I'm not sure that we enjoy HOMM games for being fast-paced. At least I never did.

    -Brandon
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  8. #8
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    Originally posted by blackpanther09:
    1-town screens are a lame video window
    2-town conversion...seriously?!
    3-This game is focused on hero development.
    4-town portal...
    5-Creature growth; I don't know if this is a balance issue that they still have to sort out but it seems like a design choice to me.
    Final thought-Why is death not permanent in this game?
    -Brandon
    Clipped for Berevity.

    1) I agree wholeheartedly. They could change it pretty easily too by making the town window a full screen and having building and recruit tabs slid to the bottom.

    2) I think it's too easy but I'm glad there's an option for it. I can see the point of changing the town type so that you can dedicate your resources to one faction, but I think it should have a higher time cost. Maybe even get wood (or ore or gems depending on what kind of town it was) from the conversion, but take 3-5 game days to process.

    3) I agree wholeheartedly, this is just a question of how much time they are willing to spend on the 'little things' that make a game more personal and speak to the players.

    4) This is more of a distinction of the game, Lame and NotLame are a question of balance and development, but the core principal I don't think is a bad one.

    5) I haven't played enough multiplayer yet to really develop an answer.

    6) Death is permanent to make healing and random numbers work better. If someone rushed dragons, and you could do 280-320 damage to a 300hp dragon. You have a 50-50 chance of killing one permanently. Being able to cure back a dragon means that you're playing less with random number generators and more with tactics. I see this as a good thing.

    Lastly, people mentioned missing the mage guilds. I think it's much better to learn spells through skill points, but perhaps there could be a place for mage guilds. Maybe the affinity abilities could be given through a guild (L1 guild gives you +2 to a magic affinity of your choice) which are currently skill points.


    ~Alpha
    www.PerformancePC.net
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  9. #9
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    As someone new to the series, I was interested in reading up more about the previous titles because I enjoyed homm6 beta.

    Honestly, if you want the perspective of someone with a fresh experience with the series, I don't see anything glaringly wrong with the game (aside from the bugs which hopefully are beta-only.)

    A lot of the issues you guys complain about tend to be balance related such as conversion costing so little or the town portal. Hopefully those numbers will be adjusted, but it's not like it's some inherent flaw in the game design.

    Aside from the town view changes (which they addressed that they will be looking at) I don't see anything game-design wise that's changed that doesn't sound for the matter. No more randomness, streamlined resources, etc.

    Anyways, my 2 cents as a fresh player.
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  10. #10
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    The city screens are my main complaint as well. If nothing else, they HAVE to change those. That gradual development of your city as you build it up (not to mention just the convenience of clicking on the buildings you need) was wonderful.

    This time around... the city interface is just... lazy.

    The map does feel very barren. But it's early, so I'm hoping in time they give us the nice bustling maps that we had in 3.

    Heroes 3 is still the pinnacle of the series in my opinion. While I did appreciate some of what 5 gave us (especially the two choices for unit upgrades)... overall, HoMM3 just had the complete package.

    Combined artifacts is something else I want to see back. I've not come across any such things yet (if they are in, where would I find them?).
    Tracking down the last piece to that set that you've been trying to build was always a great feeling. And some of the sets, taking 8 or so pieces, were just epic. And well worth the effort.

    Also... where's Town Portal?
    I didn't see that spell anywhere.
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