Faster than Light? | Forums

[Cajun76]

Nothing goes faster than the speed of light. At least, we didn't think so.

New results from the CERN laboratory in Switzerland seem to break this cardinal rule of physics, calling into question one of the most trusted laws discovered by Albert Einstein.

Physicists have found that tiny particles called neutrinos are making a 454-mile (730-kilometer) underground trip faster than they should — more quickly, in fact, than light could do. If the results are confirmed, they could throw much of modern physics into upheaval.

http://www.foxnews.com/scitech...l-faster-than-light/

[Treetop64]

This is an old discussion in the science world. Neutrinos have been talked about for years now.

[Outlaw---]

I vaguely recall reading something a long time ago about nothing being able to make the TRANSITION from sub-light to super-light speed. The math is not violated if a particle is ALWAYS going super-light speed throughout its entire existence.

--Outlaw.

[LEBillfish]

Well, though vastly undereducated compared to all who visit here, let alone Al.....I frankly don't find it surprising, shocking or whatever. In fact I find it encouraging.

Doesn't matter what era you live in you develop theories, math, sciences and so on with the tools and knowledge at hand to the best of your ability. What's more surprising is that close to 100 year old beliefs are not challenged more often, folks taking the old and constantly regurgitating it basing their work off it, and then "PROVE" it out checking it against the old work.

Now that's not to say the old work was wrong, yet the amount of new information and more so abilities we have today since the original theory's development is VAST. My guess is if this proves out to be true, X years down the line neutrinos will be found to be slower then Y...and so it goes.

Quite frankly the concept that "the speed of light" is some magic number that affects all space and time is what bewilders me......As it is simply the speed light travels at....The end.

Using it as a milestone or waypoint one thing....basing anything more from it even applying such terms as "fastest" to making no sense to me.

Yet as said......I am uneducated.

K2

[AndyJWest]

Quite frankly the concept that "the speed of light" is some magic number that affects all space and time is what bewilders me......As it is simply the speed light travels at....The end.

Yup. That is what a patent-office clerk named Albert thought - until he tried to account for the demonstrable fact that regardless of how fast you think you are going, the speed of light seems to be the same in which ever direction you measure it in. The only explanation he could come up with was that 'space' and 'time' weren't separate things at all: and that the only useful way to measure distances across space-time was via the speed of light. It isn't 'logical', or even particularly believable - but it seems to be true. If you are bewildered, that is your problem, not the universe's...

[VW-IceFire]

It is pretty impressive that Einstine's theories have held up to scrutiny for such a long time now. It seems that quite a few experiments have been oriented recently at using modern technology to measure this effect or that and Eistine wins over and over and over again.

As for this discovery. Sounds interesting! I wonder how much it will invalidate Einstine's theories or if they will continue to hold true.

[LEBillfish]

Originally posted by AndyJWest:
Yup. That is what a patent-office clerk named Albert thought - until he tried to account for the demonstrable fact that regardless of how fast you think you are going, the speed of light seems to be the same in which ever direction you measure it in. The only explanation he could come up with was that 'space' and 'time' weren't separate things at all: and that the only useful way to measure distances across space-time was via the speed of light.



It isn't 'logical', or even particularly believable - but it seems to be true. If you are bewildered, that is your problem, not the universe's...

Demonstrable fact how? How was what you state "proven".

Now common sense would say light travels at the speed of light regardless of your speed or position, yet to say "as you speed up, light speeds up as well remaining constant" is ridiculous otherwise no number could be applied to the speed of light.....Light is not some mystical force that compensates for each and everything that observes it adjusting its speed.

Otherwise, a neutrino could never be faster then the speed of light in that light would adjust its speed relative to the position of the neutrino always remaining the same.

Now, if you are bewildered, that is your problem, not light's

K2

[AndyJWest]

Science is based on observations, not 'common sense'.

[LEBillfish]

Originally posted by AndyJWest:
Science is based on observations, not 'common sense'.

Originally posted by LEBillfish:
Demonstrable fact how? How was what you state "proven".K2

Flippant quips do not answer my very specific question....Either you have the answer or do not....Which is it?

K2

[Outlaw---]

Originally posted by LEBillfish:
Demonstrable fact how? How was what you state "proven".

Now common sense would say light travels at the speed of light regardless of your speed or position, yet to say "as you speed up, light speeds up as well remaining constant" is ridiculous otherwise no number could be applied to the speed of light.....Light is not some mystical force that compensates for each and everything that observes it adjusting its speed.

Otherwise, a neutrino could never be faster then the speed of light in that light would adjust its speed relative to the position of the neutrino always remaining the same.

Now, if you are bewildered, that is your problem, not light's

K2

Actually, common sense would NOT say that the speed of light is the same no matter what your speed or position.

Your statement seems to be the logical one at first but I think that's b/c, despite the fact that you say you are uneducated, you are not completely ignorant on the subject. If you could erase all knowledge of measuring speed from your brain and start fresh with an experiment such as this one...

A person at one end of a train car and throw a baseball to someone at the other end at 50 mph as measured by the thrower, the baseball will hit the catcher at 50 mph (assume no friction loss).

If the train is going 100 mph and the ball is thrown at 50 mph, once again as measured by the thrower, just to the side of the train to someone who is standing still on the ground, the baseball hits the catcher (or target as the case may be) at 150 mph.

So, the speed of something depends on who is measuring it.

If you had no knowledge or supposition about measuring speed, wouldn't the above statement seem to be common sense?

Now, if I do the same thing with a beam of light the speed is the same for everyone no matter how fast the train is going. This has been observed, proven, and contradicts the "common sense" measurement of the baseball.

Now, since...

Distance = Speed * Time

If we use speed of light as a standard and it's speed does NOT increase relative to anyone, the variables in the above equation are...

Time and Distance

Which means that neither Time or Distance is fixed. They depend on the speed you are going. That's why Han Solo quoted the speed of the Millenium Falcon in PARSECS, which is a measure of DISTANCE. IE, it made the Kessel run in 1.2 PARSECS. He didn't say 2 days or 15 hours or 3 quintillion meters/second.

All of the above has been observed and measured.

--Outlaw.