Originally posted by Tomcatter61:
By "defensive" I mean that fact that you stated I was either "young and ignorant" or "old and stubborn" as well as implying that I'm a fool. None of that seems to be the rational, logical discussion that you think we're having; rather it sounds like someone calling names because they're upset about something. Feel free to explain.
1. I do not follow your "basic human psychology" aside. I think it seems more likely that your use of psychology was directed at provoking an emotional response from me by way of implying that a prop fighter could down an F-14. Regardless, I acknowledged that it is certainly possible. In any event, it still has nothing to do with the original question you asked: does the image prove anything other than the Raptor is WVR gun locked? Yes, asked and answered.
2. Fine. I concede we don't know if the Raptor was so badly damaged that it could no longer fly, that it was destroyed - a kill. There were no 20mm rounds flying downrange so we don't know the real results. However, if you want to claim that, then why can't we debate whether or not the Raptor's BVR kills are "speculation?" No one really fired a missile, so the pilot had no opportunity to actually try to jam, spoof or evade it. Maybe the missile exploded and only threw some shrapnel into the target aircraft. Maybe it exploded out of the damage radius and the target got away clean. Open that can of worms at your own risk.
I don't have many details on the engagement in question. All I can really tell you is the Super Hornet (to the best of my knowledge) was from VFA-11. Other than that, we've got the HUD footage. I thought you would have more information on this yourself. I'd also love to hear more about this particular encounter - especially whether the SH got WVR on the Raptor, or the fight started at the merge. Either way, it didn't seem to go well for the F-22.
Yes, I'm aware of the Israeli pilot who flew his F-15 back to base and landed after losing a wing. Again, I never said it was impossible. However, I think it's fair to say such things are rare occurrences. In fact, you yourself said it was "improbable."
3. I don't discredit "any" information on the F-22. Facts like engine thrust, weapons, wing area/loading I can accept. I do, however, question certain other figures when there is possibility of skewed numbers. I believe the Raptor would chalk up a high KDR, but quite this high, I'm not sure.
4. (Formerly 6.) I don't see it as hypocritical, but you're entitled to your opinion. First, I used the quotes somewhat in jest in my post. Second, I would give a lot more credence to a WVR guns kill than a BVR missile kill. With a WVR guns kill you are in the fight, up close, pulling G and there's no doubt when you score "hits." What happens in a simulated BVR missile engagement? Someone calls up and says, "Ok, I'm tracking you. Ok, I fired. Ok, you're dead." How does the defender get to counter the shot?
Bonus - There would be spinning necessary. You can math the hell out of the aircraft's physical properties. Until you show me math that accurately calculates the human element, you can argue until you're blue in the face (or in this case - type until you're red in the fingers). You won't sell me on that until you can define someone in numbers. Good luck.
Bonus 2 - Seriously, you can post whatever you want. What are we debating exactly? Have I ever said the Raptor isn't a potent aircraft? I don't think so. I question the limits of its potency. And really, I simply posted a picture of one getting "shot" and made a comment about how expensive it would be to replace if it were an actual combat loss. Perhaps someone needs to get a grip on what there is
to discuss or debate. I'm sorry if you don't find the image as funny as I do.
I think you are incorrect about me being young and ignorant, or old and stubborn. I said young and stubborn. The only factual data I have to back that up is the awareness of my physical age and knowledge of my behavior, past and present. Since I'm the person closest to me, it'd probably be okay to take my word for it, biased though it may be.
Young enough not to "no" any better? And "to" stubborn to realize the error of my ways? That's quite a lot of assumption on your part, isn't it? You know what they say about people who assume.
There's many things that make the Tomcat great in my eyes - looks, for starters. But, really, I think we can save that for another thread.