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Thread: 5" deck gun - anti aircraft ammo? | Forums

  1. #1
    so, I've been allowed to install a 5" canon on my Balao, and for the first time, the anti aircraft ammo slot wasn't greyed out.

    Now, I wonder, why on earth doesn't my deck gun attack bombers and other big planes?

    Do I have to do something in order for it to engage air targets?

    Unless that's possible, I'll probably go back to 4". That depends though... does the caliber increase make up for the lack of AP ammo? Are the 5" HE rounds strong enough to handle the job?
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  2. #2
    I dont think that your deckgun crew will fire at aircraft even though they do show AA shells for the 5 inch. But go back to the 4 inch? Are you crazy keep the more powerful gun you wont miss AP rounds with the 5inch and the 40mm and twin 20mm work fine aginst aircraft. You didnt try out the gun for your self aginst a ship? In the Navy the surface ships had a larger 5inch .25 caliber dual purpose gun they where mainly used in the AAA role. The 5 inch .25 caliber that the subs started using later in the war where an off shoot of that design with a shorter barrel and other submarine specific improvements. I dont think they every really used the 5inch mounted on a sub in an AAA role seeing as that there was only one while a surface fleet would have had many they would have been useful in a flack role but just one 5inch firing at an AC better to use a 40mm or 20mm and in the range of the 5inch being used in the AAA role you could have dived the sub to saftey. I think UBI added the shells but decided for some reason not to use them youd have to ask one of the mod guys on the sight they may know why. the other issue is if you aim the 5inch yourself with AA shells they will not explode like they should trying to hit an AC with one 5inch gun is going to be pretty hard.
    Buddy Holly well guess that makes you the Grand Naval Expert hands down!!!!!
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  3. #3
    Hmm... Ok, AA usage was a bit far-fetched anyway.

    Now, does anyone know, for the sake of realism, if the 5" used AP shells? Cuz I'm thinking about tweaking some files to get rid of the useless AA shells and put some AP in their place.
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  4. #4
    I don't know much about what the 5" gun fired for ammunition, but here are 2 great resources on the 5" 25 caliber submarine deck gun:

    http://www.fleetsubmarine.com/5_25_gun.html

    and the official 5" gun mark 40 manual:

    http://hnsa.org/doc/fiveinch25/index.htm

    All I see in that manual about ammunition is "Ammunition is fixed, one-piece, comprising a 53.85-pound projectile and an 11.4-pound case; the powder charge is 9.75 pounds. The initial velocity with service round is 2110 feet per second; maximum range is 14,500 yards."

    If you want to read all of the manual I'm sure you could figure out more.

    edit:
    In chapter 7 of the manual under "ammuntion" it says "Projectile (5-inch AA Common, Mark 36)"

    SUBMARINEMUSEUMS.ORG These are the submarines in your neighborhood!
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  5. #5
    snakeyez77 the section you describe is in chapter 2 not 7. It appears to only be describing the type of casings that the gun will take not the diffrent types warhead. Also this is more of a basic operation and functionality T.O. there must somewhere be antoher T.O. for combat applications out there and that one would describe the ammo/warheads that it could fire.Most equipment that I worked on in the Air Force had 2-3 T.O.s for diffrent things.
    I found a website that describes the 5"/25 familiy if you look at it it does not list any form of AP ammo. This does not suprise me as the 5"/25 was designed more for AA use orginaly and was later modified for use on submarines as a surface weapon. Also back in these old days weapon designers where a bit over zealous and would design their weapons to do things that they realisticaly would not be very effective at. On a surface ship with 5 or 6 or more 5"/25(with longer barrels and diffrent mountings) guns and a purpose bulit AA control system (something subs lacked) the 5"/25 was a great AA weapon on a sub this role would be doubtful. I would also assume that the subs 5"/25 gun being shorter would have had negative effect on AA accuracy and range. As for the lack of AP rounds I dont know but if there is no model for them in the game I dont how you are going to make them and in stock form the HEs are very powerful. And even if there where AA rounds for the 5"/25 if I where a skipper Id not waste the space those take up when you could use it for a type of ammo that your can use to good effect. As to the AP ammo none is mentioned perhaps none was ever designed.

    link to the 5"/25 page also on this page there is an AA battle described read the number of shells fired and remeber that this was ship with several 5"/25s!


    snakeyez77 I am assuming that 5-inch AA Common, Mark 36 was the type of casing used and seeing as the sub version used semi-fixed ammo they must have used that casing type for the shells.

    http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNUS_5-25_mk10.htm
    Buddy Holly well guess that makes you the Grand Naval Expert hands down!!!!!
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  6. #6
    Baolo, you are correct. I meant chapter 2, page 7.

    Yeah, I have no idea what kind of ammo the 5" 25 caliber gun fired other than what the manual listed.

    It was "the" fleet boat gun to have at the end of the war. In fact, a few fleet boats were equipped with TWO 5" 25 caliber guns, one foreward and one aft, at the very end of the war. I have just discovered that the USS Drum (SS-228) very likely had this dual gun setup as she departed for what would have been her 14th war patrol at Saipan.

    Apparently towards the end of the war, the submarine force was leaning towards the 5" guns and even rocket launchers (Fluckey's Barb and Cutter's Requin for example) due to a lacking of torpedo-worthy targets. This would be good for attacking those junks and sampans, as well as land-based targets.

    SUBMARINEMUSEUMS.ORG These are the submarines in your neighborhood!
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  7. #7
    From the information that can be found it seems as though they did not make AP rounds for the sub version of the 5". Also in real life in those days AP rounds where very iffy meaning that they either did alot or very little damage at all AP ronds then in most cases did not have enough kinetic energy to penetrate a target at any angle like a modern sabot round can with ease thats why they designed HEAT rounds during the war and they where also much more costly to produce than HE rounds where seeing that most subs would have been facing a soft target I bet when they used the deckgun they used HE rounds most often even a 5" AP round would make a CA or BB laugh for that gun would have been well insdie the kill range of a 12" or larger gun before it even had a chance. I know some US Navy DDs put up a fight in the Phillipene fighting in 1944 but they where using their torpedos more in that case and it was a sacrficial delaying action by the DDs.
    Buddy Holly well guess that makes you the Grand Naval Expert hands down!!!!!
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  8. #8
    Good point(s).

    So, I guess I'll go ahead and forget about the AP rounds. Instead I think it'd be better to get rid of the mostly useless AA shells and replace them for more HE shells.

    Is this something I can do while in port by tweaking the activeuserthingy? Or would I have to dig deeper?


    (By now I'm assuming that changing the max angle to which I can raise the gun would require 1337 m0dd1ng skilLz. Is this true?)
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  9. #9
    The funny thing is, i figured out how to add a deck gun , so it would shoot at aircraft - or so is my guess.

    There is an unused type of node on the fleet boats, it's the same node that the german heavy flak gun is mounted on. If you load up a uboat, you'll notice they have three AA guns. Two 2CM, and one heavy flak of varying calibers.

    That respesents 3 nodes in the games dat files. THey are:
    AO1
    AO2
    SO1

    Fleet boats use only nodes AO1 and AO2. Those are the forward and rear mounted 20MM or 40MM bofars. SO1 is totally unused. While i was experimenting with the 50 cal, i was adding it to node SO1, because whle it is assigned to this node, the command cycle_flak guns (F10 or F11 key in TMO), it will cycle the view 3 times, for the three different AA guns.

    So the bottom line is this, currently:
    MO1 and MO2 = deck gun nodes. (one is fore, one is aft)
    AO1 and AO2 = AA guns
    If i mounted an SO1, i could add a heavy flak styled gun.

    That translates to a sub sporting, (best case scenario), TWO 5"/25 caliber guns, and two 40MM bofars. All guns controlable by the player, no "deck gun bug" to contend with. The catch is the 2nd deck gun will be considered an AA gun by the game and the crew will not point it at a ship, only against air targets.

    Interesting thought, but since the idea of a deck gun as AA gun is kind of.. way out there in left field, i havent bothered to do anything with this.

    For me, burnout is always one step away.
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  10. #10
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    Can a deck gun even hit an aircraft (if manualy aimed?) I once had 4 kate's fly right acrossed the deck, but I was manning the other gun and looking to high. By the time I saw them they were out of position and I couldn't train the gun on them. I tried several H8k with the deck gun, as it pulls out of it's dive, but they're too good at bombing, they usualy end up hitting me and the rare chance I have to bait one I've not hit it. There are those rare time where huge masses of aircraft criss-cross the sky at night, if I find such an area again I might try to lure some more kates since AI torpedo attacks don't work anyways. see if I can peg a kate as it passes over.
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