SC6 Ideas only for those who love Conviction [Update #20 & 21, Major Hits] | Forums

[kalle90]

First of all I don't consider Bournes bad movies by any means, but it's quite obvious Conviction drew from those movies and only the bad bits. Sam is a predator constantly on the run never stopping for a minute and there is none of the interesting details or conversations. It's as if Bourne movies were shot only from Jason's perspective, and he spends all the time killing bad guys; no smart diversions, no escaping, no conversations with anyone except when beating them up, no longer-term plans.

Sorry....but No.

They are absolutely horrible plots/mission structure for an SC game. Might be OK for a Farcry game...but SC? Nope. The logical step would be to get back to the Information Warfare roots and ditch the cliche'd nonsense of SCC altogether.

I want Sam going back to infiltrating embassies and defence ministries for some data retrieval, planting bugs, hacking into servers, giving remote access to Grim...Cyber Warfare.

I want the original Data Thug to return.

At the same time....add variable speed, enemy AI that acts on aural detection, ability to hide bodies, more range in CQC, retweaked M&E, lone NPC interrogations to be added to the Conviction formula. Perfection achieved....I will take the Nobel now, thank you very much.

I'm not really getting into the story, it's always been cliched so I don't have that high expecations, what matters is the open-ended gameplay with lots of skills and items available to use. Like the best levels of the franchise: Defence Ministry, CIA HQ, Panama Bank and a couple of others. They seem like believable places with plenty of ways to approach. I wish that was expanded with even more ways to complete or fail missions, less scripting and more chances to use certain moves and gadgets. In comparison Conviction is very restrictive and rushy "You can't go there, you can't do that" with the exception of manor.

And no Far Cry won't do any of that because they have 0 stealth or NPC interaction. They're just shooters with guerilla warfare and improvised weaponry. Assassin's Creed is perhaps the closest, but it has very little indoor action and none of the modernity of SC, and very little stealth too.

[SolidSage]

@Shobhit
Bourne books are Vietnam era? Love the CQC fight scenes, gunplay and car action..it's all very good. Ultimatum was hard for my eyes to follow, lot of shaky cam going on.

@Kalle90
SP SCC was less appealing than the co-op for me. I don't think the story bothered me, and there were some great set pieces and locations, but like you say, there wasn't enough to do IN them. I also think wider and bigger contributes to good repeat play. Sam's mission was very journey'ish, and maps were great, but designed to be moved 'through' I think. A&K maps and story felt more about accomplishing things IN the maps, and I think a lot of players preferred their campaign.
I don't know, I'm sure there's more to it than that.

I like the projected texts and b&w, and sometimes the floating prompts are helpful. It's a lot like a HUD, and for me, it isn't really intrusive to the view, and it feels like it's a way of delivering valuable information in an intelligent and automatic fashion. OFF options, like Creed would certainly allow for a different feel and be beneficial all round. GRFS's techy graphical embellishments make me feel like I'm piloting my interface character, lots of relevant info available and easy ways to access and use it. Looks cool basically.

[michaelanjello]

Come to think of it, no other game goes into such detail when it comes to close combat stealth and covert operations in a closed environment such as a jungle, a building, and various other outdoor areas. Splinter cell always filled that gap in the gaming world, and thats what made it great. This is also why an effort should be initiated to preserve this idea. Hopefully the "close call" adrenaline rushes will be improved from the last game, because thats what made the classic splinter cells so amazing.

That is all in terms of that.

On another note. I have noticed that all the SC games are extremely boring ( hear my out now)
Whenever someone watches the game being played by anyone else, or whenever a friend watches me play. I notice ghat the gameplay gets really boring to watch because only the player feels the tension in the scene. I noticed that DA really helped with that. They kinda tried to take that away and make it more engaging. However i do think an effort should be put to change that. This does not necessarily mean faster gameplay like conviction. I think this means making the world more dynamic where it needs to be and more static where it needs to be. Also putting more variety in the games. For example trying not to reuse the same object in different levels. (such as fire extinguishers, doors, posts, books, shelves, cars etc. etc.) this kinda diminishes the atmosphere of the game. Also add abstract levels.( pretty much all of chaos theory)
- this means making the player use the mechanics in the game he is not used to doing which become routinely excercizes.
-this was visible in levels such as the bank, hokkaido, and battery

[shobhit7777777]

@Shobhit
Bourne books are Vietnam era? Love the CQC fight scenes, gunplay and car action..it's all very good. Ultimatum was hard for my eyes to follow, lot of shaky cam going on.

Yup. Post Vietnam era actually...Cold War period.

I personally found no problems with the Shaky cam..but a lot of my friends and family didn't like it much....TBH it does get a bit annoying....very slightly.

@Kalle

Fair enough. I share your feelings regarding the SP segment in terms of mission design and progression. I liked how they explored Sam....it was cliched..but done well. If Sam were to go AWOL...Conviction is how it would go down. People complain that the game destroyed Sam's character...but I feel different...it was like One good actor in a really bad movie. Sam was Sam...but had to react to ****ty B-Movie situations and cliches. I appreciate how they wanted to explore the more predatory side of Sam and they did it well...apart from that Conviction SP was horrid.

From a gameplay perspective I disagree....partly because I went in knowing exactly how the game would play out. I had no hopes or expectations of classic stealth, I knew they were focussing on Aggro-Stealth, I enjoyed it thoroughly...it fit my playstyle of IRL Stealth...which is more aggressive and pro-active....so......



Right now the biggest thing the devs need to ID is the overall narrative theme of the game...this would determine the gameplay IMO.

The Clancy-esque Info-Warfare theme would automatically gravitate towards Classic Stealth (SCCT)
The 24-esque one-man-against-meggido theme would gravitate towards Aggro-Stealth (SCC)

They need to pin down 3rd Echelon's ROLE in order to get a grip on the game style IMO.
Is 3E the tip-of-the-spear in the fight against Meggido? Actively sabotaging its cells, disabling comms, dismantling its infrastructure, attacking key installations and capturing key personnel? Well Conviction style aggro-stealth is the answer

OR

is 3E the silent predator? Sitting behind the curtain, quietly gathering ELINT, sending in deep cover agents to unravel the Meggiddo network, hacking in satellites, locating the key locations, pointing out targets for the heavy hitters as it observes from the sidelines.
SC1-3 is the key

I believe that for either stealth style to work, it needs proper narrative framework.

Conviction's aggro-stealth in both the Coop and SP made sense, because the player was in situations that required lethality and speed in lieu of absolute deniablity and discretion. They were nabbing bad guys, disabling warheads etc. They were into Direct Action operations. Splinter Cell applied here the same as they were a single unit operating behind enemy lines, without much of an oversight, self contained.

So the aggro stealth was totally believable in the scenario and was welcomed...thats how I wouldve done it in real life


In the case of Chaos Theory where Sam was on an INTEL HUNT, discretion and secrecy was paramount. They couldn't know that the USG was involved...no traces...so the classic stealth felt perfect....I hated going too aggro in SCCT.

[SolidSage]

@Michaelanjello
You nailed it there. SC isn't like Creed, which is a game that can be viewed and enjoyed thoroughly by a bystander. SC really has been more about the atmosphere, that 'feel' of really pushing it to the edge and risking a lot. kind of reminds me of sneaking downstairs as a kid and nabbing bread for a snack, had to hide up in the under frame of a dining room table a couple of times to avoid detection. There's a lot more places you can hide when you're small.

C brings something extra to the table because the approach can be successful in a variety of ways, and it wouldn't need a whole lot of modifying to get that deep stealth ambiance back. I find it to be achievable now with the right amount of effort, minus the anxiety induced by detection guaranteeing failure.

@All
I'm kind of at the point though, that if Sam and SC's were really just about intel gathering, they would be wearing civvies, negotiating with power brokers and hacking from remote computers. At the end of the day, the SC is on site because he can and will reach out and touch/disable the gate and key keepers and equipment. SC's are primarily militaristic in their trade skills so I think we have to think of them as that kind of extra uber wetwork operator really. Their role is to do it without the world knowing. Not even the SEAL's can do that all the time now.

Sam's SP in C was a little different in that it was a personal vendetta rather than a SC op. I liked it for it's delving into Sam's life and personality more than any other title in the series, it's the first real look at him in that regard. I especially enjoyed the scenes with young Sara. I think that was enough though, and I would like to see him and some others getting back at the official (but denied) operations again. missions with a lot of variables that really promote replaying and striving for better success rates. the problem with story heavy games is that when the story ends, it's kind of loses the appeal for replay. A&K was story light IMO, basic premise, nice development and twists but at the core, the missions felt like objectives rather than..progression I guess.

[sameer_monier]

^^ at last someone who enjoyed the SP like me , thx solid

[kalle90]

First of all, I also preferred co-op campaign, but it still has many of the issues. Levels seem linear with lots of "Turn back" signals, agent work mostly boils down to interrogating and beating up a guy, weapon stashes are really stupid and in general the easiest way is often to just kill everyone from the darkness, especially if the partner isn't quite at your level. For Sam we can use the "it's personal" argument but for A&K it doesn't work.

From a gameplay perspective I disagree....partly because I went in knowing exactly how the game would play out. I had no hopes or expectations of classic stealth, I knew they were focussing on Aggro-Stealth, I enjoyed it thoroughly...it fit my playstyle of IRL Stealth...which is more aggressive and pro-active....so......

I guess I'm still clinging on that old Conviction build with hobo Sam. Atleast the previews gave me the impression that the level is a small sandbox. I can survey the location, know that cafe is the place I need to get in, but there are guards all around. Seemed like there would be multiple starting diversions to use and even if I'm noticed it doesn't instantly turn into a gunfight.

Frankly that seemed much more Bourneish than the Conviction that we got. You know the guard is there blocking your way, you start an alarm causing everyone to run at the scene, you slip by the guard inside to access the computer, perhaps someone comes to check up and you quickly beat him down and leave the scene blending into the crowds and traffic, heading to the next location. Gun is always your very last resort no matter how personal it is or how cornered you are.

Alas, dwelling in that is useless. What the game needs now is to bounce back towards its roots. I wonder if it can succeed.

[Bassie52]

i mean c'mon.....CO-OP!!!...

single player was perfect, but playing co-op with my broh??,hahaha, that was freakin perfect!!..talking eatchother through..snapping neks..Fu(k yeah!!

[michaelanjello]

Fun.......yes.
Perfect?.......far from it.
Less killing, more espionage.

[SolidSage]

^ More need for espionage yes, but not more restriction on how a mission can be approached. If a mission were to get blown in the real world, an operator like Sam wouldn't get a "game over" screen. He would have a choice of fight or flight, and attempt whichever one was more acceptable in the situation. If excerising the 5th Freedom meant the mission could still be a success, I don't doubt that would be the choice made. In particularly hairy operations, terminating chances of discovery as you came upon them might well grant higher chances of success. Getting that data back to our people being the ultimate goal usually.
In missions of the highest level, like SCC's attempted coup on the President and the United States, I feel sure that eliminating resistance would be SOP. Especially considering the urgency.

@Bassie
Nice pics, good shots of how beautiful C could be.
Also, like you, I think beating the crud out of Black Arrow chumps was off the chain, interrogations were a great laugh, and nicely done. And doing it all with your bestie?.....well that just made it twice as gooder! (I know. I did it on purpose).