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  1. #11
    Both Brotherhood and Revelations show that the Assassins are not without flaw. In Brotherhood there is a moment where a character tells Ezio that he is no better than his enemies, who kill innocent people to get what they want, when he himself kills hundreds in the process of hunting his targets down. And in Revelations it is discussed that ultimately the goals of the rival factions are the same, where the Templars believe in control being the means for world peace and Assassins believing that a free mind will generate peace.
    The creators of this game put a lot of thought into this. It is meant to make you ask if you are doing the right thing. Are you? Are you a slave to the controls placed in your life or do you educate yourself and be free? Do you tell others what to do to keep the peace or do you ruin the lives of others by exposing their flaws in order to educate the masses?
    Nothing is true = Don't believe what you are told, research it yourself and make up your own mind.
    Everything is permitted = Whatever choice you make is yours and yours alone. Stick to your decisions. Do what you must to achieve your goals but remember that every action you take has consequences.
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  2. #12
    Ever since ACII I am rooting for the Templars/Abstergo, and with every game after that I feel more confident in this decision.

    You bring up very valid points and I can't say I disagree with you. I also thought the last Cappadocia mission was a litte disturbing... just a bunch of people suffocating because Ezio wanted to destroy some guns? Just dump them in the sea or something. They even said that most of the guns don't even work.

    But anyway, I will say that this topic has been part of the game since day one... Even in the first AC, you go about, blindly, killing the 9 Templars without much reason besides the fact that your Mentor told you to do it. And actually, he turns out to be only using you for personal gain.

    It's something that comes up a lot in the story line. And I think that the writers do that on purpose.

    You make a lot of good points though.
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  3. #13
    Originally posted by SaMuRaI197:
    Both Brotherhood and Revelations show that the Assassins are not without flaw. In Brotherhood there is a moment where a character tells Ezio that he is no better than his enemies, who kill innocent people to get what they want, when he himself kills hundreds in the process of hunting his targets down. And in Revelations it is discussed that ultimately the goals of the rival factions are the same, where the Templars believe in control being the means for world peace and Assassins believing that a free mind will generate peace.
    The creators of this game put a lot of thought into this. It is meant to make you ask if you are doing the right thing. Are you? Are you a slave to the controls placed in your life or do you educate yourself and be free? Do you tell others what to do to keep the peace or do you ruin the lives of others by exposing their flaws in order to educate the masses?
    Nothing is true = Don't believe what you are told, research it yourself and make up your own mind.
    Everything is permitted = Whatever choice you make is yours and yours alone. Stick to your decisions. Do what you must to achieve your goals but remember that every action you take has consequences.
    There's also the thing of right and wrong that seems to be disturbing people. Right and wrong is subjective and relative. As you well put it nothing is true hints at relativism again. Everything is permitted hints that rules are set by ourselves when in reality there could be no rules, therefore everything is permitted. What may be right for one person may be wrong for other person.
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  4. #14
    Precisely. So to Adnocana, right from the start it's not meant to be clear cut. The assassins do what they believe is right, and the Templar's do what they believe is right aswell. It's one side of the story that you see.
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  5. #15
    Hmm... what to make of this.

    Well, let's put it this way:

    In AC2,(we're focusing on Ezio now), his "executions" are a little more flashy and stylish to show his self-confident personality.

    Now really, you don't really have to kill guards unless they get in the way of your goal and when those two guards
    "I can't wait to show this to my wife tonight. She's going to be very happy with the extra money".
    You don't HAVE to kill those guards you can just run straight past them. And there's the rest of the game really, you don't have to kill guards unless they either:
    A: attacked you in which Ezio has no choice but to defend himself
    B: When they directly risk the success of a mission.

    Now in Brotherhood, Ezio is older and more experienced in combat. So maybe his self-confidence in his combat skills are better- hence even flashier kills/kill-streaks. That's my excuse. And still here, Ezio doesn't really kill innocents. He only kills those that will kill him . And so on~

    Now onto Revelations. Ezio is old, tired, and wants to settle down. Here Ubisoft claims Ezio is more wise, but really all I see here is no follow-through with that; except when teaching his students. First reason is when Ezio kills Tarik with no real investigation like in his younger years. Second reason is when Ezio blows up Cappadocia, there should've been more of a thought process on that.

    So what does this show? Exactly what I said about him being tired. Ezio really seems to be uncharacteristic. He seems to want the "quick way out" on everything. His kills are messy and brutal and more or less downright disrespectful. Especially when he killed Leandros; he went against everything Mario told him to show respect for the dead. So let's remember, Ezio is old in Revelations and very tired of this Assassin life-style. Even shown in Assassins Creed: Embers he gets angry when a fellow Assassin finally meets him when she went through so much to get to him.

    So...yeah.
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  6. #16
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    Originally posted by assassinato_862:
    Hmm... what to make of this.

    Well, let's put it this way:

    In AC2,(we're focusing on Ezio now), his "executions" are a little more flashy and stylish to show his self-confident personality.

    Now really, you don't really have to kill guards unless they get in the way of your goal and when those two guards <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> "I can't wait to show this to my wife tonight. She's going to be very happy with the extra money".
    You don't HAVE to kill those guards you can just run straight past them. And there's the rest of the game really, you don't have to kill guards unless they either:
    A: attacked you in which Ezio has no choice but to defend himself
    B: When they directly risk the success of a mission.

    Now in Brotherhood, Ezio is older and more experienced in combat. So maybe his self-confidence in his combat skills are better- hence even flashier kills/kill-streaks. That's my excuse. And still here, Ezio doesn't really kill innocents. He only kills those that will kill him . And so on~

    Now onto Revelations. Ezio is old, tired, and wants to settle down. Here Ubisoft claims Ezio is more wise, but really all I see here is no follow-through with that; except when teaching his students. First reason is when Ezio kills Tarik with no real investigation like in his younger years. Second reason is when Ezio blows up Cappadocia, there should've been more of a thought process on that.

    So what does this show? Exactly what I said about him being tired. Ezio really seems to be uncharacteristic. He seems to want the "quick way out" on everything. His kills are messy and brutal and more or less downright disrespectful. Especially when he killed Leandros; he went against everything Mario told him to show respect for the dead. So let's remember, Ezio is old in Revelations and very tired of this Assassin life-style. Even shown in Assassins Creed: Embers he gets angry when a fellow Assassin finally meets him when she went through so much to get to him.

    So...yeah. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Agreed. The excuse of "killing many people" is ambiguous. We do not know the real amount of people Ezio killed. Like you mentioned, you can easily avoid the guards by waiting for them to move or just out run them, seriously. Ezio was reckless with the Tarik mission, but Suleiman told him to kill him if needed. Ezio did want a "quick way out" if you put it in that perspective.
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  7. #17
    That's the point. Neither of the group are good, their intentions are though, and the means to do those good intentions are questionable. Using power to control people, hiding in the shadows to kill those who use that power to control. Neither is justifiable. This is the kind of middle ground we saw in AC1, neither of the Orders were evil per say, but neither good.

    As for Ezio, he was tired. He was weary of being an assassin and you see that for his disregard for the creed. Killing innocents, disrespecting those he has killed "the first guy and then the renegade" He just wanted to be done, and he was.
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  8. #18
    Senior Member Ferrith's Avatar
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    Originally posted by erudit0:
    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SaMuRaI197:
    Both Brotherhood and Revelations show that the Assassins are not without flaw. In Brotherhood there is a moment where a character tells Ezio that he is no better than his enemies, who kill innocent people to get what they want, when he himself kills hundreds in the process of hunting his targets down. And in Revelations it is discussed that ultimately the goals of the rival factions are the same, where the Templars believe in control being the means for world peace and Assassins believing that a free mind will generate peace.
    The creators of this game put a lot of thought into this. It is meant to make you ask if you are doing the right thing. Are you? Are you a slave to the controls placed in your life or do you educate yourself and be free? Do you tell others what to do to keep the peace or do you ruin the lives of others by exposing their flaws in order to educate the masses?
    Nothing is true = Don't believe what you are told, research it yourself and make up your own mind.
    Everything is permitted = Whatever choice you make is yours and yours alone. Stick to your decisions. Do what you must to achieve your goals but remember that every action you take has consequences.
    There's also the thing of right and wrong that seems to be disturbing people. Right and wrong is subjective and relative. As you well put it nothing is true hints at relativism again. Everything is permitted hints that rules are set by ourselves when in reality there could be no rules, therefore everything is permitted. What may be right for one person may be wrong for other person. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Thank you!
    People keep talking about right and wrong, black and white, and they seem to forget that many things in life fall into the less travelled and explored gray area.

    Originally posted by ACSineQuaNon:
    What you propose, to simply "accept the flaws of humanity," is dangerous. To ignore any means of instructed, disciplined progress is unrealistic. I'm not an advocate of brainwashing the masses, but I don't believe people should always be allowed to act on their instincts. Often, our first impressions are incorrect and the actions that result from them, ill-advised.
    This is how Templars would justify their efforts to manipulate and control the masses.
    By this statement alone you forbid people to think for themselves, make their own decisions and learn from their mistakes.
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  9. #19
    Originally posted by Ferrith:
    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by erudit0:
    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SaMuRaI197:
    Both Brotherhood and Revelations show that the Assassins are not without flaw. In Brotherhood there is a moment where a character tells Ezio that he is no better than his enemies, who kill innocent people to get what they want, when he himself kills hundreds in the process of hunting his targets down. And in Revelations it is discussed that ultimately the goals of the rival factions are the same, where the Templars believe in control being the means for world peace and Assassins believing that a free mind will generate peace.
    The creators of this game put a lot of thought into this. It is meant to make you ask if you are doing the right thing. Are you? Are you a slave to the controls placed in your life or do you educate yourself and be free? Do you tell others what to do to keep the peace or do you ruin the lives of others by exposing their flaws in order to educate the masses?
    Nothing is true = Don't believe what you are told, research it yourself and make up your own mind.
    Everything is permitted = Whatever choice you make is yours and yours alone. Stick to your decisions. Do what you must to achieve your goals but remember that every action you take has consequences.
    There's also the thing of right and wrong that seems to be disturbing people. Right and wrong is subjective and relative. As you well put it nothing is true hints at relativism again. Everything is permitted hints that rules are set by ourselves when in reality there could be no rules, therefore everything is permitted. What may be right for one person may be wrong for other person. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Thank you!
    People keep talking about right and wrong, black and white, and they seem to forget that many things in life fall into the less travelled and explored gray area.

    Originally posted by ACSineQuaNon:
    What you propose, to simply "accept the flaws of humanity," is dangerous. To ignore any means of instructed, disciplined progress is unrealistic. I'm not an advocate of brainwashing the masses, but I don't believe people should always be allowed to act on their instincts. Often, our first impressions are incorrect and the actions that result from them, ill-advised.
    This is how Templars would justify their efforts to manipulate and control the masses.
    By this statement alone you forbid people to think for themselves, make their own decisions and learn from their mistakes. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

    lol exactly!!!!
    Also, storyline-wise Templars(abstergo) are in the very core of every totalitarism in history , as it seems they hell bent on establishing opressive system, enslaving mankind , also because of them we have to pay for electricity(which could be provided for free, by tesla misterious invention), also they responsible for WW2, and for keeping masses in poverty ever since.

    This is actually great phylosophical/ethical provocation by creators of storyline :
    - are we to agree that ppl are sheeps to be controlled ( and actually exploited) for they own good, and if we do, who supposed to do that, and how come they are better than those controlled by them?
    or,
    - are to agree that freedom is value in itself, despite all misfortunes which comes with that?

    OP however rightly noticed that the assasins the same way like templars ,justify deeds by its means.
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  10. #20
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    I'm not going to judge the whole creed of assassins based on Ezio's actions.
    To me when referring to the assassins i imagine Altair as the model perfect assassin, because i believe that he symbolizes the creed so strongly through his actions.
    From Ezio and Altair we can see that their morality differs.
    Which is justified with 'nothing is true everything is permitted' the debate of this philosophy will always end in the outcome of questioning the individuals (assassins) morality. The decision of whether you support the assassins or the templars questions your own individual morality. I believe that the assassins are righteous because despite the fact that they are not perfect and make some irrational decisions, they aim to achieve something much greater then the templars.
    I would rather have Ezio kill hundreds/thousands of people out of necessity then have those people to succeed only to corrupt and control the planet.
    would you rather kill people unjustly? or would you rather allow yourself to be stripped of your conscience control.
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