HOW FAR WILL DUBYA GO? | Forums

XyZspineZyX · 11-20-2003, 04:00 PM

Everyday more "allied" troops are getting torn up by roadside blasts, missle attacks, gun figts and RPG rounds...
The international community has spoken and nobody seems to agree with Dubya's politcs or policies regarding anything to do within Iraq with the exclusion of Britain a very shaken Italy and a nervous coalition at best.
So the questions are as follows:

Does anyone see Iraq as another Vietnam in the making?

Were the American people lied to?

Was the world lied to?

Where do YOU stand friend? ( U WITH US OR AGAINST US?? ) lol

QUESTIONING AUTHORITY IN A DEMOCRACY IS PATRIOTIC,
but that depends on ones perspective of democracy.

KILL YOUR T.V

XyZspineZyX · 11-20-2003, 04:00 PM

Everyday more "allied" troops are getting torn up by roadside blasts, missle attacks, gun figts and RPG rounds...
The international community has spoken and nobody seems to agree with Dubya's politcs or policies regarding anything to do within Iraq with the exclusion of Britain a very shaken Italy and a nervous coalition at best.
So the questions are as follows:

Does anyone see Iraq as another Vietnam in the making?

Were the American people lied to?

Was the world lied to?

Where do YOU stand friend? ( U WITH US OR AGAINST US?? ) lol

QUESTIONING AUTHORITY IN A DEMOCRACY IS PATRIOTIC,
but that depends on ones perspective of democracy.

KILL YOUR T.V

XyZspineZyX · 11-20-2003, 04:35 PM

How far WILL he go? People want them to pull out, but they'll start complaining even more about him not finishing the job and "abandoning" the Iraqis, and how Iraqi Freedom was such a failure.

Did you know it took 5 years to help rebuild Japan after we kicked their rear in WW2?

<table style="filter:glow[color=blue, strength=4)">"People sleep peacefully in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf"
- George Orwell
"I'd rather have the responsibility and burden of knowledge, than the happiness and joy of ignorance."
-Ambassador</table>
[/b][/i]
<marquee bgcolor="#000000">Now in the news................................Ubisoft loses sales due to poor customer service and falsly advertised "technical support".....................In a gathering of top Bush administration officials, word leaked out that America wants to stop N. Korea from building Nuclear Reactors just because N. Korea is full Ubisoft supporters.....................Ubisoft enemies grow %3.25 today.....................Newest patch for Raven Shield include a whopping 14 extra computer crashing bugs, with a bonus extra level that makes your computer explode and kill you.....................New patch available for download for Ubisoft's Raven Shield (patch 1.99999999b).....................Culprit in massive power outage in the N.E. of United States found; A computer gamer was playing Raven Shield, and the FPS' dropped so low, that it drained the electricity of the N.E......................New investigation concludes that Liberia broke into civil war because their president defended Ubisoft, and the citizens did not.....................Author Tom Clancy gets arrested today as he enters game company Ubisoft offices, and strikes a developer several times in the face before escorted out of the building by a SWAT team.....................Man wanted for murder takes hostages in Montana home; police say that the demands are that Ubisoft stops screwing customers over. The police abruptly stopped negotiating when they found out his demands, and sent in the SWAT team in fear that the demands were impossible.....................Ex-Police Chief Charles Moose tells reporters of why he didn't write about his lousy experiences with game company Ubisoft. Moose says he will have to write another book just about that................................Man in L.A. jumps off 7 storey building today. Suicide note tells of a sad story - the man was trying to get Raven Shield to work on his computers for 3 weeks straight with no technical support</marquee>[/b][/i]

XyZspineZyX · 11-20-2003, 04:37 PM

and just to refresh your memory, We haven't even been there a year!

<table style="filter:glow[color=blue, strength=4)">"People sleep peacefully in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf"
- George Orwell
"I'd rather have the responsibility and burden of knowledge, than the happiness and joy of ignorance."
-Ambassador</table>
[/b][/i]
<marquee bgcolor="#000000">Now in the news................................Ubisoft loses sales due to poor customer service and falsly advertised "technical support".....................In a gathering of top Bush administration officials, word leaked out that America wants to stop N. Korea from building Nuclear Reactors just because N. Korea is full Ubisoft supporters.....................Ubisoft enemies grow %3.25 today.....................Newest patch for Raven Shield include a whopping 14 extra computer crashing bugs, with a bonus extra level that makes your computer explode and kill you.....................New patch available for download for Ubisoft's Raven Shield (patch 1.99999999b).....................Culprit in massive power outage in the N.E. of United States found; A computer gamer was playing Raven Shield, and the FPS' dropped so low, that it drained the electricity of the N.E......................New investigation concludes that Liberia broke into civil war because their president defended Ubisoft, and the citizens did not.....................Author Tom Clancy gets arrested today as he enters game company Ubisoft offices, and strikes a developer several times in the face before escorted out of the building by a SWAT team.....................Man wanted for murder takes hostages in Montana home; police say that the demands are that Ubisoft stops screwing customers over. The police abruptly stopped negotiating when they found out his demands, and sent in the SWAT team in fear that the demands were impossible.....................Ex-Police Chief Charles Moose tells reporters of why he didn't write about his lousy experiences with game company Ubisoft. Moose says he will have to write another book just about that................................Man in L.A. jumps off 7 storey building today. Suicide note tells of a sad story - the man was trying to get Raven Shield to work on his computers for 3 weeks straight with no technical support</marquee>[/b][/i]

XyZspineZyX · 11-20-2003, 05:42 PM

Ambassador wrote:

- Did you know it took 5 years to help rebuild Japan
- after we kicked their rear in WW2?

Actually, it took roughly a decade to rebuild Japan (6.5 years officially if you quote government sources), and at the height of our occupation we had over 400,000 troops there. Nevertheless, it is really pointless to even compare Iraq with the rebuilding of Japan or Germany. The differences are so vast that one could only wish that coalition forces were dealing with the same situation that presented itself post WW II. Anyway, take a look at the analysis below, and you will get a better grasp of what I'm trying to convey here.

Few parallels with Germany and Japan

Seven months after Baghdad fell, the Bush administration is confronting critics of its occupation strategy in Iraq by recalling U.S. triumphs in postwar Germany and Japan. But some historians say those are different stories.

The postwar reality in Germany and Japan, scholars say, was very different from today's Iraq. Historians point out that while more than 240 U.S. troops have been killed in Iraq since Bush declared an end to major hostilities on May 1, the total number of postwar American casualties in occupied Germany and Japan was zero.

While campaigning in New Hampshire last month, President Bush nevertheless repeated the comparison with postwar Germany and Japan, nations that have since blossomed into affluent, stable democracies, and posed no military threat to anyone in 50 years.

''America did not run from Germany and Japan following World War II. We helped those countries become strong and decent democratic societies that no longer waged war on America. That's our mission in Iraq,'' Bush said.

John Dower, a professor of Japanese history at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, takes issue with the president's comparison. ''Policy makers are using historical analogies comparing occupied Germany and Japan to Iraq the way a drunk uses a lamp post, not for illumination but for support,'' he said.

American GIs were so safe in Japan that they could move their families there and Gen. Douglas MacArthur lived in Tokyo with his wife and son. ''I can't imagine this happening in Iraq,'' Dower said.

RECOGNIZED DEFEAT

In Germany, also, the Americans met cooperation, not violence, said Harvard's German history professor Charles Maier.

Maier and Dower say U.S. forces in Germany and Japan met no armed resistance because their populations felt legitimately defeated and their leaders had surrendered unconditionally.

''Not all former Nazis became democrats overnight, to say the least, but they realized how totally Germany had been defeated and that there was no point in a resistance campaign,'' Maier said. ``Iraq was defeated too easily for the same consciousness to pervade.''

In Japan, Emperor Hirohito even ordered his subjects to cooperate with the occupiers -- a far cry from the situation today in Iraq, where many people have never accepted defeat and former President Saddam Hussein's whereabouts remain unknown.

Academics also warn that the Coalition Provisional Authority in Iraq seems to lack the long-term planning and groundwork necessary for a successful occupation.

In contrast, Washington had been preparing for the occupation of Germany and Japan for several years before the end of the war, Maier said, even training soldiers in civil affairs schools starting in 1942, three years before the end of the war.

POPULACE, NEIGHBORS

There are other major differences, experts say:

* In Iraq, U.S. troops face a nation with a history of conflicts among Shiite and Sunni Muslims, Kurds and Turkomans, unlike the largely homogenous Germany and Japan.

* Iraq's neighbors pose problems for U.S. rebuilding efforts, with Syria and Iran accused of failing to secure their borders against infiltrators. By comparison, U.S. troops in Germany and Japan enjoyed the cooperation of neighboring nations that had been invaded by the defeated armies.

* Perhaps more importantly, Iraq lacks the democratic experience of pre-war Germany and Japan, making it harder to implement a U.S.-led democratization process, historians say.

German history professor David Hamlin of Brown University added, ``German politicians could look back on their own past for a German model of democracy in a way that Iraqis cannot.''

* Unlike World War II, when the world applauded the U.S. war effort, the U.N. Security Council refused to endorse the preemptive U.S. strike on Iraq and protesters around the world denounced it as illegal and immoral.

* Finally, the U.S. rebuilding policy in occupied Iraq is quite different from the one promoted in Germany and Japan, the historians added. While the Bush administration has been inviting foreign companies to help rebuild Iraq's infrastructure, the U.S. occupation of Germany and Japan preferred to issue reconstruction contracts to national companies.

By limiting the role of Iraqi companies in their economy, Dower added, the U.S. occupying authorities might be alienating Iraqi professionals, whom he sees as a key ingredient for a successful and cost-effective reconstruction.

Despite the differences, Harvard's Maier said, ``This doesn't mean we can't make it work. But it will take a long time, and much skill and will.''

Source: Global Policy Forum

XyZspineZyX · 11-20-2003, 06:01 PM

drugbox wrote:
- So the questions are as follows:
-
- Does anyone see Iraq as another Vietnam in the
- making?

Nope.

- Were the American people lied to?

Nope. Intel wasn't as good as the entire world believed.

- Was the world lied to?

Nope. Intel wasn't as good as the entire world believed.

- Where do YOU stand friend? ( U WITH US OR AGAINST
- US?? ) lol

Not with you. And I'm clearly not your "friend".

.Wit
Ubi Soft/RSE Forum Moderator
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XyZspineZyX · 11-20-2003, 06:34 PM

By the way Ambassador don't get me wrong. I think the US and its allies can prevail in Iraq, and their most recent policy reversals (which were recommended by the U.N. and our European allies to begin with) there concerning the transfer of power to the Iraqis (prior to waiting for a constitution to be written) and the reenlisting of former military personnel (majority of which were lower level Baath Party officials and conscripts) who comprise a huge segment of unemployed persons and potential recruiting pool for the insurgency is surely a step in the right direction.

XyZspineZyX · 11-20-2003, 07:39 PM

V3-Dev wrote:
- Ambassador wrote:
-
-- Did you know it took 5 years to help rebuild Japan
-- after we kicked their rear in WW2?
-
- Actually, it took roughly a decade to rebuild Japan
- (6.5 years officially if you quote government
- sources), and at the height of our occupation we had
- over 400,000 troops there. Nevertheless, it is
- really pointless to even compare Iraq with the
- rebuilding of Japan or Germany. The differences are
- so vast that one could only wish that coalition
- forces were dealing with the same situation that
- presented itself post WW II. Anyway, take a look at
- the analysis below, and you will get a better grasp
- of what I'm trying to convey here.
-
- Few parallels with Germany and Japan

But take a good look at what we did to make them realize Defeat.
This time we have gloves on V3. It takes a lot longer to show these Leaders that their game is over.
Especially when you have the UN and the Europeans breathing down our backs with their nonesense, instead of getting in there and getting the job done (like the UN recomended.) in a much quicker time.
-
- Seven months after Baghdad fell, the Bush
- administration is confronting critics of its
- occupation strategy in Iraq by recalling U.S.
- triumphs in postwar Germany and Japan. But some
- historians say those are different stories.

Yeah they are different stories because they don't match their stories. But the fact is that those two nations are now a free productive nation that is an asset to the entire world.

- The postwar reality in Germany and Japan, scholars
- say, was very different from today's Iraq.

You dont have to be a scholar to realise that one V3.

- Historians point out that while more than 240 U.S.
- troops have been killed in Iraq since Bush declared
- an end to major hostilities on May 1, the total
- number of postwar American casualties in occupied
- Germany and Japan was zero.

But did they happen to mention how many civilian and military personel died during the war compared to Iraq and Afghanistan?
Do you think it would be better to hit them with all we have? because then we can guarantee 0 deaths while we are reconstructing.
-
But you see V3 all you and the Liberal monkeys that follow your way of thinking are only interested in pointing out your false misconceptions that Bush started this war to get the oil profits to his rich friends. Nothing he does will be to your satisfaction.

And to the idiots (scholars) that believe this is turning to another Vietnam.......its only in the minds of the defeated. Different situation different President and a whole new toy collection.

<center>

Lead follow or get out of the way

XyZspineZyX · 11-20-2003, 08:00 PM

Well I guess only time will tell now won't it.

XyZspineZyX · 11-20-2003, 09:14 PM

Was I the only one that chuckled at the line in V3Dev's article:

"Not all Nazi's became democrats overnight"

[img]/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif[/img] [img]/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif[/img] [img]/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif[/img]

No offense to dems, take it out of context and have a chuckle [img]/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif[/img]

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