1. #11
    MisterWillow's Avatar Senior Member
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    Originally Posted by Fatal-Feit Go to original post
    What are his flaws, exactly? His defense seems godly and his offense isn't bad at all. I don't have many good experiences fighting/playing the hero, so this is a legit question of mine.

    I know he can't perform long/harassing combos, but most players in high level play can't rely on combos because they're too risky and easy to punish. The 2 hit combos of his seem perfectly adequate, and even better than some due to the speed and hyper armor. Attack range and stamina consumption doesn't seem to be any issues either. It seems like he has all the tools to outmaneuver his opponents without any real drawback.
    As Brando pointed out, this is actually his biggest flaw. For all the damage he can do, you have to be incredibly close to your opponent for an attack to land (not sure if he quite has the shortest range of the entire roster, but it's close). The only ways of closing the distance is the forward dash > Headbutt (which does no damage by itself, and the follow up stab does very little) and his Jumping Heavy, which is extremely easy to avoid or parry because it's so telegraphed.

    He can't really outmanoeuvre opponents either. His dashes are pretty short. Aside from Shugoki, I think he has the shortest dash/dodge in the game. On top of that, the Headbutt can only be performed out of a forward dash---so he's not like Raider, who can dodge to one side and hit you with a Pommel Strike---and he has no other dash attacks.

    I do agree that he has almost too many tools at his disposal, especially after playing Raider in the previous tests so much. I don't think anything really needs to be taken away from him, necessarily, though. His kit feels complete (much more complete than Raider, who I wish had a parry-counter similar to Warlord's Shield Bash Counter). I think a good way of balancing him out a bit would be to increase is stamina consumption, at least on his Headbutt. You can spam that into oblivion and your opponent can't really do anything but dodge, which is obviously possible, but it's like Conqueror's shield bash, where if you get an opponent next to a wall or in a corner, there's literally nothing they can do. You're free to Headbutt > stab them to death.

    They could also decrease the stamina you take from an enemy on the Shield Bash Counter. If you notice in the gif above, Conqueror is taken from full stamina to a hair short of none by that move alone. At most, it should take half an opponent's bar.

    [EDIT] Also, it seems rather strange that the Warlord can shove opponents in any direction, but the Raider can't with his carry. It seems like an ability that should be switched since (imo) the Raider lacks a good offensive 1v1 toolset and Warlord already has a lot of countering/punishing options. Grabbing and swinging your opponents to the side to reduce stamina seems like more of a Warlord thing to me anyway.
    Raider's throws seem right to me. Carry is only forward because it's the easiest thing to do from that position, since you have that natural momentum, and their side throws being tosses with the axe haft make more sense than picking an opponent up, changing orientation and sprinting a different direction. Plus, their ability to twirl an opponent in a complete circle is invaluable when outnumbered, since you can stagger everyone around you.

    Like I said above, though, Raider's toolset seems severely lacking compared to Warlord, and I wish they had a counter move off a parry. They could parry > immediate guard break, and strike their opponent with the end of the axe haft, which could either do damage or inflict a dazing effect (or both, depending on the amount of damage), or a light-parry (like the Block and Counter) that could have the same effect.

    It's also seemed very strange to me from the very beginning that Raider doesn't have a trip ability, where they put their axe behind an opponent's leg and yank it out from under them. That's one of the practical functions of a large axe head. Maybe that would be too much for some people, but considering Raider's limited mix-up potential, they need something to really set them apart.

    Originally Posted by waraidako Go to original post
    May Odin bless your shield for this quality post.
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  2. #12
    Fatal-Feit's Avatar Senior Member
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    Originally Posted by MisterWillow Go to original post
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    As Brando pointed out, this is actually his biggest flaw. For all the damage he can do, you have to be incredibly close to your opponent for an attack to land (not sure if he quite has the shortest range of the entire roster, but it's close). The only ways of closing the distance is the forward dash > Headbutt (which does no damage by itself, and the follow up stab does very little) and his Jumping Heavy, which is extremely easy to avoid or parry because it's so telegraphed.

    He can't really outmanoeuvre opponents either. His dashes are pretty short. Aside from Shugoki, I think he has the shortest dash/dodge in the game. On top of that, the Headbutt can only be performed out of a forward dash---so he's not like Raider, who can dodge to one side and hit you with a Pommel Strike---and he has no other dash attacks.

    I do agree that he has almost too many tools at his disposal, especially after playing Raider in the previous tests so much. I don't think anything really needs to be taken away from him, necessarily, though. His kit feels complete (much more complete than Raider, who I wish had a parry-counter similar to Warlord's Shield Bash Counter). I think a good way of balancing him out a bit would be to increase is stamina consumption, at least on his Headbutt. You can spam that into oblivion and your opponent can't really do anything but dodge, which is obviously possible, but it's like Conqueror's shield bash, where if you get an opponent next to a wall or in a corner, there's literally nothing they can do. You're free to Headbutt > stab them to death.

    They could also decrease the stamina you take from an enemy on the Shield Bash Counter. If you notice in the gif above, Conqueror is taken from full stamina to a hair short of none by that move alone. At most, it should take half an opponent's bar.

    Raider's throws seem right to me. Carry is only forward because it's the easiest thing to do from that position, since you have that natural momentum, and their side throws being tosses with the axe haft make more sense than picking an opponent up, changing orientation and sprinting a different direction. Plus, their ability to twirl an opponent in a complete circle is invaluable when outnumbered, since you can stagger everyone around you.

    Like I said above, though, Raider's toolset seems severely lacking compared to Warlord, and I wish they had a counter move off a parry. They could parry > immediate guard break, and strike their opponent with the end of the axe haft, which could either do damage or inflict a dazing effect (or both, depending on the amount of damage), or a light-parry (like the Block and Counter) that could have the same effect.

    It's also seemed very strange to me from the very beginning that Raider doesn't have a trip ability, where they put their axe behind an opponent's leg and yank it out from under them. That's one of the practical functions of a large axe head. Maybe that would be too much for some people, but considering Raider's limited mix-up potential, they need something to really set them apart.

    Thanks for the detailed explanation. I hadn't noticed that range held him back that much, but I barely used him. I can see how long range enemies like the Nobushi would be annoying now.
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  3. #13
    TCTF_SWAT's Avatar Senior Member
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    Hmmm I'm pondering a few things.

    1) When in DM (like the conqueror can do) or just gaurding in general, is it possible to block attacks from behind you? Because I saw someone block an attack from behind completely (like 180 degree behind someone attack) and they weren't locked on to said person attacking them from behind. Is it even possible to attack someone from behind without resistance?

    2) You stated the HB deals stamina damage to the opponent. In the GIF, I saw no such thing happening.

    3) That shield counter bash..... the move itself did what.......20?....25% stamina damage? The parry shaved off a huge chunk. Not the shield counter.
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  4. #14
    MisterWillow's Avatar Senior Member
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    Hey, wanted to let everyone know that a Zone Attack gif has been added.

    Originally Posted by Fatal-Feit Go to original post
    Thanks for the detailed explanation. I hadn't noticed that range held him back that much, but I barely used him. I can see how long range enemies like the Nobushi would be annoying now.
    It really is a major weakness. Even fighting a Vanguard is disadvantageous, especially Kensei, just because his reach is so short.

    Originally Posted by TCTF_SWAT Go to original post
    1) When in DM (like the conqueror can do) or just gaurding in general, is it possible to block attacks from behind you? Because I saw someone block an attack from behind completely (like 180 degree behind someone attack) and they weren't locked on to said person attacking them from behind. Is it even possible to attack someone from behind without resistance?
    No, it isn't.

    It's much harder to defend against, especially if an enemy is directly behind you, because the attack indicator tends to flash between left and right, so you aren't entirely sure which direction you're supposed to block on, but you can defend against all attacks, no matter the position on secondary or tertiary opponents, and that includes when in Perfect Defense.

    2) You stated the HB deals stamina damage to the opponent. In the GIF, I saw no such thing happening.
    The gif is from the tutorial video, and for whatever reason, the effect isn't applied there. I can assure you it does in-game.

    3) That shield counter bash..... the move itself did what.......20?....25% stamina damage? The parry shaved off a huge chunk. Not the shield counter.
    The timing is extremely tight on actually performing the counter---so tight that you almost have to press guard break at the same time you parry---and the stamina drain for both the parry and the counter are applied together.

    If a normal parry drained that much stamina, there'd be no reason to counter, really. You'd just need to parry > dash > headbutt, and your opponent would be out of stamina, which would be broken.
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  5. #15
    TCTF_SWAT's Avatar Senior Member
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    Well unless the alpha's fixed things and noone noticed then whatever it's fixed. But I did see a kensei block an attack from behind against an orochi.

    So the tutorial is incorrect wonderful....unless......it was an older tutorial.

    Well for parries, according to the tutorials for the first alpha back in September parries drained...looked like 60-65% of stamina. Go look for yourself. Unless this was changed to be warlord only then well good for him. Otherwise......yeah.
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  6. #16
    MisterWillow's Avatar Senior Member
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    Originally Posted by TCTF_SWAT Go to original post
    But I did see a kensei block an attack from behind against an orochi.
    That's what's supposed to happen. As long as you match what side the opponent is on, you'll block their attack.

    So the tutorial is incorrect wonderful....unless......it was an older tutorial.
    It could have been made before they decided that effect should be applied. A few of the others are like that as well.

    Well for parries, according to the tutorials for the first alpha back in September parries drained... looked like 60-65% of stamina. Go look for yourself. Unless this was changed to be warlord only then well good for him. Otherwise......yeah.
    Don't think so.

    This was taken from this video from back in august, and it takes 25-30%, which is much more consistent with what I've experienced throughout the tests. They might have wavered a little bit, but I don't ever remember them draining over half a character's bar.

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  7. #17
    TCTF_SWAT's Avatar Senior Member
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    So you can defend against all positions.....from all sides (front, back , sides, angels etc). Kinda......eh. Not really digging that too much. But we'll see how it plays out.

    Makes sense. But it is annoying (it will be less when I can actually get my hand son the game).

    So the tutorial is wrong.....again.....and that was taken in august? So......is this older footage then?

    https://youtu.be/gLHoxVDmejY?t=1m22s

    Because here I'm seeing way more then 25%. I never got a chance to play the alphas so I can only go off videos. Obviously the deflects have changed (dodge rather then block). But I figured the rest was in-tact and maybe tweaked slightly in certain areas....maybe.

    I mean this may or may not matter come the beta. But I wanna get my facts straight so I can get a leg up people. I don't wanna be Squeaky clean new.
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  8. #18
    MisterWillow's Avatar Senior Member
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    Originally Posted by TCTF_SWAT Go to original post
    So you can defend against all positions.....from all sides (front, back , sides, angels etc). Kinda......eh. Not really digging that too much. But we'll see how it plays out.
    I've been in several tests, and it's been working fine so far.

    If there were a point at which you could literally not defend yourself, I feel like that would be far too frustrating for players who are outnumbered. At least now you can stay alive long enough for a friend to help you out.

    Makes sense. But it is annoying (it will be less when I can actually get my hand son the game).
    I agree.

    So the tutorial is wrong.....again.....and that was taken in august? So......is this older footage then?
    The video was published in August, yes. But they'd already had at least one test beforehand.

    https://youtu.be/gLHoxVDmejY?t=1m22s

    Because here I'm seeing way more then 25%. I never got a chance to play the alphas so I can only go off videos. Obviously the deflects have changed (dodge rather then block). But I figured the rest was in-tact and maybe tweaked slightly in certain areas....maybe.
    It could have something to do with he's parrying an Orochi. Different characters have different base stats, including max stamina. Never noticed a parry affected Orochi that much, if indeed that level of stamina drain is still in place.

    There's other things that I'm paying attention to when fighting someone, like their stance. I often don't even look at an opponent's health/stamina bar.

    I mean this may or may not matter come the beta. But I wanna get my facts straight so I can get a leg up people. I don't wanna be Squeaky clean new.
    And that's perfectly understandable. If something isn't adding up to you, it's better to point it out.
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  9. #19
    it's a beautiful guide, MrWillow!

    one nitpick/y point tho, it is fare not fair in the description of the Warlord.

    Originally Posted by TCTF_SWAT Go to original post
    So you can defend against all positions.....from all sides (front, back , sides, angels etc)
    lies, one can not defend himself against the Angels. DEUS VULT!

    I'll see myself out :P
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  10. #20
    TCTF_SWAT's Avatar Senior Member
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    Hmmmmmmmmmm.......2 weeks to go.
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