Can someone explain me what's may be the differences between the two system of looking around the cockpit - I mean only people that really have tried both- thank for suggestion/poll.. S!. Italianofalco

i've never heard of the cam2pan before. can you provide a link?

here you are m8's

www.mousevision.com

... it worth a try as it's also FREE ...

I think it generally comes down to the refresh rate and resolution of the various devices. I think a web cam generalyl runs at around 30FPS where as the TrackIR devices specs are:



When I tried a web cam with Cam2Pan a while ago on a mates PC who liked the idea of having a head controlled view system but it did'nt work half as well as my TrackIR 1 which I've since upgraded to a TrackIR 2 and given the TrackIR 1 to my mate.

I use cam2pan - I don't use Track IR cos I can't see what it will give more for $100 extra.

Seeing as the human eye sees at 30fps max all those specifications are academic.

I turn my head and it follows - trying it on several different spec machines - the real limitation is the power of your CPU + graphics card to handle all that input.

Then the real trick is fine tuning the settings - that takes time and practice - but my m8s with track had the same learning curve.

And the biggest trick is stopping your head bobbing around...

quote:

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Originally posted by STENKA_69.GIAP:
I use cam2pan - I don't use Track IR cos I can't see what it will give more for $100 extra.

Seeing as the human eye sees at 30fps max all those specifications are academic.

I turn my head and it follows - trying it on several different spec machines - the real limitation is the power of your CPU + graphics card to handle all that input.

Then the real trick is fine tuning the settings - that takes time and practice - but my m8s with track had the same learning curve.

And the biggest trick is stopping your head bobbing around...

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Yes, the learning curve is very significant and so are the need of preventing your head from moving too much

Those issues prolly are present with track ir too.

I´ve also used the Cam2pan for some years now and are pleased with it(cost is only 9.95$ for the latest version).

I´ve seen some tracks of trackir and do not see enough difference in performance to convice me to spend an other 100+ $ in getting trackir.

9.95$ and the good performance of Cam2Pan together with a swift and friendly support makes me satisfied.

quote:

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Originally posted by STENKA_69.GIAP:
I use cam2pan - I don't use Track IR cos I can't see what it will give more for $100 extra.

Seeing as the human eye sees at 30fps max all those specifications are academic.

I turn my head and it follows - trying it on several different spec machines - the real limitation is the power of your CPU + graphics card to handle all that input.

Then the real trick is fine tuning the settings - that takes time and practice - but my m8s with track had the same learning curve.

And the biggest trick is stopping your head bobbing around...

---

LOL!

It's got nothing to do with the human eye!

The refresh rate is how many times a second the device scans for a change in position.

To make it easier to understand imagine if the device scanned for a change in position only twice a second and then imagine what that would look like in game if you moved your head from full left to full right in one second.

The device would recognise only two points during that entire transition.

Now imagine the same scenario with the device picking up change in position six tims during that second.
Far smoother movement than the 1st example I think you'd agree.

So your cam2pan system is scanning your head 30 times a second to see if it's position has changed.

TrackIR 1 is OK (I use it) but it has definate shortcomings at only 60Hz.
If I very quickly move my head the motion on-screen is slightly jerky.

With a TrackIR3 or 3pro that has a far higher refresh rate that jerkiness is virtually eliminated.

I agree about learning to fly without bobbing your head though

I used Cam2Pan for a couple of weeks before i caved in and bought a Track-IR2.

It took some time getting Cam2Pan working at it's best, and even more time getting used to it. I was never really satisfied though, it was a little bit jerky and lost calibration too often for my liking.

Then i bought Track-IR2...
I'd say it was like going from an old,tired and heavily used Ford Fiesta to a brand new Ferrari 550!
The difference is enormous. Honestly, you can't even begin to compare the two.

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Originally posted by Extreme_One:

quote:

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Originally posted by STENKA_69.GIAP:
I use cam2pan - I don't use Track IR cos I can't see what it will give more for $100 extra.

Seeing as the human eye sees at 30fps max all those specifications are academic.

I turn my head and it follows - trying it on several different spec machines - the real limitation is the power of your CPU + graphics card to handle all that input.

Then the real trick is fine tuning the settings - that takes time and practice - but my m8s with track had the same learning curve.

And the biggest trick is stopping your head bobbing around...

---

LOL!

It's got _nothing_ to do with the human eye!

The refresh rate is how many times a second the device scans for a change in position.

To make it easier to understand imagine if the device scanned for a change in position only twice a second and then imagine what that would look like in game if you moved your head from full left to full right in one second.

The device would recognise only two points during that entire transition.

Now imagine the same scenario with the device picking up change in position six tims during that second.
Far smoother movement than the 1st example I think you'd agree.

So your cam2pan system is scanning your head 30 times a second to see if it's position has changed.

TrackIR 1 is OK (I use it) but it has definate shortcomings at only 60Hz.
If I very quickly move my head the motion on-screen is slightly jerky.

With a TrackIR3 or 3pro that has a far higher refresh rate that jerkiness is virtually eliminated.

I agree about learning to fly without bobbing your head though

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This refreshing talk seem quite academical to me as the human eye can´t see any difference in some flickering on the screen above some 15-20 times a second .

30 times or 60 times your eye cant differ

I think the refresh rate issue is a red herring as it isn't what the eye can see, but the amount of refreshes you need to update the pan position on the screen. From what I could tell from my use of cam2pan 30fps is fine. The issue is that cam2pan is much more susceptible to interference from ambient light conditions than TrackIR is, so TrackIR is more successful. I tried cam2pan and bought TrackIR3 (non Pro).

quote:

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Originally posted by Tocca4:
I used Cam2Pan for a couple of weeks before i caved in and bought a Track-IR2.

It took some time getting Cam2Pan working at it's best, and even more time getting used to it. I was never really satisfied though, it was a little bit jerky and lost calibration too often for my liking.

Then i bought Track-IR2...
I'd say it was like going from an old,tired and heavily used Ford Fiesta to a brand new Ferrari 550!
The difference is enormous. Honestly, you can't even begin to compare the two.

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This sums up my experience and opinion perfectly. I will add that in addition to being smoother and overall of much higher quality (obviously), the ability to play in a sunlit room or with "bright spots" behind me in the room was ALONE worth the extra money. Filtering out the noise with cam2pan was too much of a pain in the ****, as was dealing with recentering. The TrackIR in enhanced mode auto-centers for you which is OUTSTANDING.

Track IR was worth *every* penny.

with regard to "head bobbing" and trackIR


most people find it necessary to program a "deadzone" when they first start using the device

many people stick with the deadzone but i have found after using trackir for some time you can eventually progress to a straight profile and pick up more control as you naturally learn to hold your head still and no longer need a deadzone

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Originally posted by Aaron_GT:
I think the refresh rate issue is a red herring as it isn't what the eye can see, but the amount of refreshes you need to update the pan position on the screen. From what I could tell from my use of cam2pan 30fps is fine. The issue is that cam2pan is much more susceptible to interference from ambient light conditions than TrackIR is, so TrackIR is more successful. I tried cam2pan and bought TrackIR3 (non Pro).

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Quite right about the red herring - it doesn't matter about how many FPS you are inputting at if the end result is only seen at 30fps. You could input at 1000 FPS and the end result is the same.

You have to spend some time tuning the sensitivity and smoothing to get the best balance - and that also goes for lighting - I use a small lightbulb mounted on my flying helmet and set flashlight mode in Cam2pan - this is very accurate and reliable.

The biggest blocker that I found was the performance of CPU and graphics processor. My first rig with XP2000+ with ATI8500 gave shearing on cockpit edges with the constant movement this dissapeared with an XP2600+ and FX5900.

As for comparing clapped out Fords with wanting to drive a Ferrari - when you drive to work in Paris traffic I can assure you that it's not the most comfortable, reliable and cheapest method. It won't even get you there faster.

Some of my chums use Track IR and are very happy with it - it's a good product. It should be at that price.

Duh!

I'll say it agin for those that missed it.

The TrackIR refresh rate has nothing to do with FPS or what your human eye can detect or any such thing.

It is the number of times a second the device scans for a change in position.

If it is only scanning at 60hz then then it's able to detect motion 60 times in a second.

the TrackIR3 scans at 120mhz - 120 times a second so obviously it is far smoother and more precise.

Precision being the key factor in this discussion.

Have any of you you guys got optical mice?
They have a refresh rate too. The higher the better - again it has absolutley nothing to do with FPS or how many frames a second the human eye can detect!

If you think that cam-2-pan or TrackIR1 is as good as a trackIR 2 3 or 3pro then you are sorely mistaken.

That said - I use TrackIR1 as I can't afford anything better.

If budgetary restrictions are the reason for your blinkered thinking then that's understandable.

Oh and to say that the human eye is unable to detect the differnce between 30 fps and anything higher is a total misnomer too.

24fps is enough to fool the brain/eye into seeing natural looking motion but anything higher will fool your eye/brain even more.

Had both.

Cam2pan was a nice experience. Worked very well for me.

TrackIR 3Pro is, however, leaps and bounds better. Advantages:

1) works with any light conditions (c2p needs *decent* illumination -- trackir works also at night).

2) Much more precise and snappy. And I mean it! That's probably the most evident "plus" that's in trackir.

3) Easier to setup, both the first time and during flight. E.g. if you play during day, while the sun sets the light will change and the c2p will start working worse. You need to turn on the light to be running ok.

It's not a given that c2p will setup well for you! I was lucky but some people in my squad couldn't get it to work.

In the end I don't regret spending the money, however I was also happy with c2p.

Let's put it this way, you can be very fine also with cam2pan, but let's not be in denial: tir 3pro is a whole different experience.

My 0.02 Cents of course..

It's like HOTAS stick vs GamePad.
You can do it with latter but should admit it's clumsy.

I love the "cant see more than 30fps" arguement. You guys really neeed to do some research and reading before you make statments like that. it makes you look foolish.

Could this be a desperate promotional attempt by someone with multi-aliases?

The "30 fps/eye comments" are an obvious dodge to a not-so-subtle deficiency.

Chad

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Originally posted by Supr:
I love the "cant see more than 30fps" arguement. You guys really neeed to do some research and reading before you make statments like that. it makes you look foolish.

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It's nice to see some one convinced he´s right, like you Supr.

The performance of Cam2pan seem to be affected most by the general fps my puter manage to present with the actual settings...so if I set the game to run smooth - the Cam2pan runs smooth..

No major effect on gameplay fps as it seem.

All come down to the owerall settings of game and Cam2pan...And thats issues i recon Trackir users will suffer under too

It has nothing to do with what your eye can see as you're not viewing anything on the TrackIR. If the device was say 1FPS the it would only pick up the movement eratically but with a higher refresh rate (FPS) it tracks your movements a lot smoother which allows it with the aid of it's higher resolution to make smooth movements in your chosen game much like the resolution on a mouse.