instresting data, however consider one thing, most of people are generally fed up with tech support. The first try to solve the problem is usually searching forums or asking for help on them, have you counted those people too ? OF course even if ya did you have to consider another group of people, those who found someone with similar problem on the forums and thus didnt even said he have this problem too. In the end we have 1-1.5% of real users have problems. Still not much? well, consider system configs, starforce can work on most of system, having problems with high end system (because breaking absteaction layer, thus having to have all drivers on its own), yes most of the problems are in high end system sphere, so whats the percentage here ? 10%? and now consider someone buys a top-end system of all new parts just released... what is the change of he having problems ? about 30%... worth that ?

on the other hand you're the very first Ubisoft employee that even cared about problems with starforce, congratz

quote:

Originally posted by nx306:
instresting data, however consider one thing, most of people are generally fed up with tech support. The first try to solve the problem is usually searching forums or asking for help on them, have you counted those people too ? OF course even if ya did you have to consider another group of people, those who found someone with similar problem on the forums and thus didnt even said he have this problem too. In the end we have 1-1.5% of real users have problems. Still not much? well, consider system configs, starforce can work on most of system, having problems with high end system (because breaking absteaction layer, thus having to have all drivers on its own), yes most of the problems are in high end system sphere, so whats the percentage here ? 10%? and now consider someone buys a top-end system of all new parts just released... what is the change of he having problems ? about 30%... worth that ?

on the other hand you're the very first Ubisoft employee that even cared about problems with starforce, congratz

And not counting people going in to the stoors demanding there help.

quote:

Originally posted by felladin:
Now all I want to know is:
Is there a way for me as a swede to get hold of UBI or SF personel outside of work hours? (I go to work at 4 am and come home at 6 pm, I have a long way to travel to my job.)

Do I have to buy 3 copies in order for me and my two sons to be able to play?

SF can be reached 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. I contacted them during the beta installation (due to a screwup on my part) and I got an ICQ response in less than 20 seconds, and an e-mail response in less than 5 minutes. This was near midnight in the US and on a weekend. So reaching them is definitely NOT a problem.

Concerning the multiple copies question. You'll have no problem playing hot-seat with all 3 of you with one disc. But if you're wanting to play multiplayer with 3 people on 3 different computers...yes, you'll need 3 different copies of the game. Sorry.

@ Hodgepodge

You really need to READ his post more carefully. He clearly states that when you uninstall Heroes 5, Starforce gets uninstalled as well. COMPLETELY uninstalled. The drivers do NOT remain there. I've checked this myself with the beta version.

I understand your concern, but he's stated some very clear facts on the matter. Yes, from the figures he lists, 1500 complaints were filed out of 500,000 games. But of those 1500 complaints, 900 of them were simply problems entering the activation code. Now you're down to 600 problems. 300 more of these problems were specific to Splinter cell 3 and the use of ISO images. Now you're down to 300 problems. He wasn't ignoring the splinter cell 3 related problems like you seemed to think. He was simply showing you what portion of the problems were directly related to splinter cell 3.

So 300 problems (other than activation key entry problems or Splinter Cell ISO images) out of 500,000 is a very small number in my opinion. And yes, that's VERY much in line with nearly every other windows application out there. And even those 300 problems....very few of THOSE were problems that couldn't be fixed or duplicated. I know I shouldn't say it, but......try not to worry so much about it. It'll be fine.

ok , is obvious that a report from ubisoft will be in favor of starforce, also as someone told me its seems that the version of the SF in the beta isnt the same as in the game, so we must wait a objetive analysis

thank you very much
this post is literally what i've been looking for and although your objectiveness could be in question, i belive you and i announce, whithout being snob that this wont be one of the reasons i wont be buying the game, there *might* be others, but this wont be one.

regarding the following:

quote:

Originally posted by MuadDib_FC:
Starforce : final report

Sure, but these are reported problems only ? What about the real existing problems that do not get reported ? Well that's right, we don’t know about the troubles encountered by users who did not report them. But when you're a legitimate buyer, and you have all the contact info to try to solve an issue, why would you NOT do it ? Not much of a logic there, so hopefully these reports cover most actual problems.

i disagree, there are many reasons legit players wont report a problem with a game or, alternativly, they will but some how *double cough* it will *cough* dissapear/not be answered *cough*. and im not making things up here, some *companies* (doesnt only apply to publishers) sweep their garbage under the rug,
IT DOES HAPPEN.
also id like to add, and i hope youll read this:
1. some people have no idea if they were initialy registered, and they have no way to know.
2. some people left the forums because there's nothing to do here, and they prefer to " " in another place with poeple they know / prefer / whatever. and i hope that doesnt put them out

edit to chaosgorgon: i think charles is pretty objective. and considering the different versions i think the statistics are quite a good answer, plus id wait to see what others say before i buy the game.

edit2: znork?! your a mascot? grats! what the hell is that supposed to mean? you bribed the forum admin?

i dont know man, i wasnt talking about chucles (charles???), as you say there are problems that arent reported, but there is a potential decrease of the computer performance ,that you cant notice -only with special software-, and a weakness against the viruses, so if you are attacked by a virus, well, one of the reason could be SF, but that cant be reported as a SF problem, so again we must wait a objetive analysis

quote:

Originally posted by Chuckles:
@ Hodgepodge

You really need to READ his post more carefully. He clearly states that when you uninstall Heroes 5, Starforce gets uninstalled as well. COMPLETELY uninstalled. The drivers do NOT remain there. I've checked this myself with the beta version.

I understand your concern, but he's stated some very clear facts on the matter. Yes, from the figures he lists, 1500 complaints were filed out of 500,000 games. But of those 1500 complaints, 900 of them were simply problems entering the activation code. Now you're down to 600 problems. 300 more of these problems were specific to Splinter cell 3 and the use of ISO images. Now you're down to 300 problems. He wasn't ignoring the splinter cell 3 related problems like you seemed to think. He was simply showing you what portion of the problems were directly related to splinter cell 3.

So 300 problems (other than activation key entry problems or Splinter Cell ISO images) out of 500,000 is a very small number in my opinion. And yes, that's VERY much in line with nearly every other windows application out there. And even those 300 problems....very few of THOSE were problems that couldn't be fixed or duplicated. I know I shouldn't say it, but......try not to worry so much about it. It'll be fine. Big Grin

Why would you take Splinter Cell 3 out of the data? It is afterall, a UbiSoft game, so why shouldn't its statistics count? Even so, I would say that 300 StarForce problems out of 500,000 is a huge risk!

Oh, but you & FC aren't counting the Splinter Cell problems … why is that? Because Splinter Cell happens to be another UbiSoft game with StarForce incompatibility! Is Heroes V going to have no ISO image conflicts with StarForce?

quote:

Originally posted by MuadDib_FC:
I already said that indeed it is not uninstalling automatically, unless the protected application or game decides so. Heroes 5 will uninstall Starforce when you uninstall the game. In any case you can find the tools on the web to manually uninstall if you want to. But remember that other applications could be protected by Starforce as well, and they WILL require it to be reinstalled to work properly. In such case the protection will be reinstalled automatically, for the application to run properly.

I have NO other applications on my computer with StarForce and I don't want any program with StarForce installed either.

Let me reiterate for your benefit, Chuckie … you are the one who needs to read MuadDib's post more carefully, between the lines … while it is full of percentage statistics, he fails to post the actual number of users who had problems with StarFoirce.

By Fabrice's own words he based his "study" on only four games … published earlier this year by UbiSoft … totalling only half a million copies … over only a few months … and all protected by StarForce.

Games published by UbiSoft? Using only a half a million copies? And over only a few months? What good is a study like that? A biased study from an employee of UbiSoft?

And so in conclusion: even if there were only 300 as FC claims (not counting Splinter Cell's StarForce problems) that is still 300 too many. If there are 10 million copies sold, that would still leave 6,000 people who have bought a game legally and are having StarForce problems. But we all know that the following figures are much more accurate:

How many copies of Heroes V does UbiSoft expect to sell worldwide? 5 million? 10 million? 20 million? That multiplies the number of users who have a problem with StarForce quite substantially! What are we talking about then? 15,000, 30,000, 60,000 or more users who'll have problems with StarForce … and you think that's "low enough" & reasonable?

And another thing Chuckles, I'm not worried about it at all, because until UbiSoft ditches StarForce, Heroes V will NEVER be installed on my computer!

quote:

Originally posted by MuadDib_FC:
I wont also enter the argument on WHY we use this protection system. Simply put, it’s the best available on the market. It takes weeks or even months to get a barely cracked version of a game, and usually it does not get fully cracked. This is a world of difference with having the game you've been working on for more than two years available as warez on the launch day, in terms of sales, but also in terms of team spirit.

The sad truth is that quake4 had starforce and it was hacked in a few days.

quote:

Originally posted by Hodge_Podge:
Why would you take Splinter Cell 3 out of the data? It is afterall, a UbiSoft game, so why shouldn't its statistics count? Even so, I would say that 300 StarForce problems out of 500,000 is a huge risk!

Oh, but you & FC aren't counting the Splinter Cell problems … why is that? Because Splinter Cell happens to be another UbiSoft game with StarForce incompatibility! Is Heroes V going to have no ISO image conflicts with StarForce?

Didn't you read his OR my post? He IS counting Splinter Cell 3. All of his numbers are taking SC3 into account. The ONE time he mentions what the figures are without SC3 and that's all you're seeing apparently. Read it.

And remember that of those 300 problems I said were left over, MOST of those were solvable problems too.

ISO image conflicts?!? There isn't any conflict. One of the main purposes of the protection is to eliminate the possibility of creating an ISO image. THAT is what they want to eliminate.

quote:

I have NO other applications on my computer with StarForce and I don't want any program with StarForce installed either.

If this is a definitive statement on your part, then I think this whole debate and argument is over. H5 WILL have Starforce. Period. However, starforce doesn't affect any other applications on your computer. His statement was referring to the fact that IF you have any other applications/games that require starforce. If you don't, then you have no worries.

quote:

Let me reiterate for your benefit, Chuckie … you are the one who needs to read MuadDib's post more carefully, between the lines … while it is full of percentage statistics, he fails to post the actual number of users who had problems with StarFoirce.

By Fabrice's own words he based his "study" on only four games … published earlier this year by UbiSoft … totalling only half a million copies … over only a few months … and all protected by StarForce.

Games published by UbiSoft? Using only a half a million copies? And over only a few months? What good is a study like that? A biased study from an employee of UbiSoft?

Of course it's biased. And of course it's limited to the Ubisoft products. Do you really think that Starforce would release information to Ubisoft about other companies? If you want detailed analysis about ALL of the games that starforce protects, then you'd have to talk to the people from Starforce. Fabrice is speaking about what he CAN speak about. Ubisoft's games and the effect that Starforce has had on it. And from what I've seen, he's gone into great detail to reveal the pertinent information. What else do you want from the guy? You can complain and moan all you want, but they're not going to remove Starforce from h5. It's just not gonna happen. Other than removing it, what exactly do you want? Facts? He gave a ton. Reasons? He stated those too. Instead of constantly complaining about Starforce, try saying something new for a change. Just a suggestion.

quote:

And so in conclusion: even if there were only 300 as FC claims (not counting Splinter Cell's StarForce problems) that is still 300 too many.

So, you'll only be happy with a 100%, error-free product? Sure, that'd be great. But I live in the REAL world. Think about how many different types of computer systems there are out there, with all the different configurations. Do you really think they'll EVER be a piece of softwear made that doesn't have ANY problems? Get real.

quote:

How many copies of Heroes V does UbiSoft expect to sell worldwide? 5 million? 10 million? 20 million? That multiplies the number of users who have a problem with StarForce quite substantially! What are we talking about then? 15,000, 30,000, 60,000 or more users who'll have problems with StarForce … and you think that's "low enough" & reasonable?

You really think they'll sell that many copies?!? I'd be completely SHOCKED if they sold ONE million. The PC market is nowhere NEAR what it used to be. I fully expect the figure to be MUCH closer to 500,000....IF they're lucky. You have to remember that h4 left a VERY bad taste in many peoples mouths. AND 3do pretty much ran the entire name-brand into the ground near the end. So this game is an attempt to get the name-brand back on it's feet. Heck, I bet even Ubisoft would be thrilled at half a million sales.



~edit~

I found this on Wikipedia. Just thought you might like to see some numbers to put h5 in perspective.

PC
Please note this is an incomplete list. PC games (including Macintosh, Microsoft Windows, Linux) that have sold more than a million copies.

The Sims (10 million)
Half-Life (8 million)
Starcraft (8 million)
Age of Empires II (8 million)
Myst (7 million)
Diablo II (6 million)
Age of Empires (5 million)
World of Warcraft (4 million)
Doom (3 million)
Diablo (3 million)
Half-Life 2 (3 million)
Civilization III (2 million)
Quake (1.8 million)
Battlefield 1942 (1.5 million)
Age of Mythology (1 million)
Guild Wars (1 million)
Neverwinter Nights (1 million)
Return to Castle Wolfenstein (1 million)

So, like I said, I'd be SHOCKED if H5 sold even HALF a million copies worldwide.

quote:

Originally posted by goznik:
The sad truth is that quake4 had starforce and it was hacked in a few days.

Quake 4 is protected with safedisc, not starforce.

Isn't it also worthwhile to see that only ONE case has popped up in the beta test that took any length of time to figure out, and it was, in fact, solved?

I think that alone is a very compelling argument, personally.

- Tale

Thanks Fabrice, that was very nice of you to gather those statistics.

And good work Chuckles! It really gets annoying when someone just wants to spread fear among people. He reads the lines as he pleases, to get the results he wants. That if anything is biased.

For 3-d shooters it is more important to become de-facto standard , as it was with Q1 or Q2 or Q3 before Counterstrike.. So they can risk piraci in order to have game more popular. With other titles it is nessesary to protect, so StarForce - best solution.
And I had 3 computers and no problems with Starforce, installed about 5 games with SF protections. So i am positive about that. No problems with alcohol os something else.
About figures FC gave us - If chance of 1 of 30000 bothers you, you probably dont want to drive a car, looking at the mortality rate there!

quote:

Originally posted by C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s:

I found this on Wikipedia. Just thought you might like to see some numbers to put h5 in perspective.

PC
Please note this is an incomplete list. PC games (including Macintosh, Microsoft Windows, Linux) that have sold more than a million copies.

The Sims (10 million)
Half-Life (8 million)
Starcraft (8 million)
Age of Empires II (8 million)
Myst (7 million)
Diablo II (6 million)
Age of Empires (5 million)
World of Warcraft (4 million)
Doom (3 million)
Diablo (3 million)
Half-Life 2 (3 million)
Civilization III (2 million)
Quake (1.8 million)
Battlefield 1942 (1.5 million)
Age of Mythology (1 million)
Guild Wars (1 million)
Neverwinter Nights (1 million)
Return to Castle Wolfenstein (1 million)

So, like I said, I'd be SHOCKED if H5 sold even HALF a million copies worldwide.

very intresting info, never looked at it, intresting that after half life no fps got to his toes, besides h-l 2 that made less than a half. also suprised to see myst in and nwn, which is a very "narrow" game (the gener is the game not). also notice that besides aoe2 and diablo2 no succesor was as good as the first game (and thats a lot in favor of blizzard and ensemble studios, which keep the games great)

I just want to inform you MuadDib_FC that Starforce is actually extremely easy to crack nowadays. As far as I know, people just make a clone of the cd then use a program to hide the fake disc from starforce. No crack is needed whatsoever and the method is working universally.

This unfortunately makes StarForce a classic case of "hurting the legitimate customer more than the pirates" :/

Hate making first post like this hehe but i just dont get this. Wouldnt splinter cell be older SF version also, than what your putting in ? If you want to compare try out aftershock forum alittle.

One interresting post is in this tread http://forum.ufo-aftermath.com/index.php?showtopic=865...

I haven't studied StarForce particularly, but I *am* a programmer, so I can tell you roughly how it works and why people dislike it.

In order to be effective, it has to install as a device driver, which means for WinXP, it has ring-0 privileges, something normally only Windows and "real" device drivers have. With this greatest of privileges comes the greatest of responsibilities - a bug can do almost unlimited damage to your system integrity, because it's operating as close to the OS itself as 3rd-party code can (in the Windows World). This is one reason why people dislike it - writing software that operates in this ring is demanding and easy to get wrong. This is why you see a low percentage of true horror stories - some relatively corner-case bug can very easily result in filesystem corruption.

Next, in order to prevent various circumvention techniques - mostly, debuggers - copy protection schemes like Star Force do NOT just start up when the game starts. That's BS, pure and simple. The drivers are loaded when the OS boots, and block various tools like debuggers, drive emulators, and the like from operating in the way they're intended to work. This is a wonderful way to do what Star Force wants to do, but it is NOT something the computer owner wants. This is the next reason people dislike it - Star Force is asserting, on the game's behalf, that the game's owners' rights are more important than the users's rights to know, and control, what happens on their system. Arguments that the OS and other apps do the same kind of thing are misleading - some games try lesser approaches to the same thing (always running full screen, attempting to find debuggers already in memory and not loading if so, etc.), but Star Force's approach is taking it to the next level - directly interfering with OTHER user-space software to enforce its copy protection.

Finally, it's apparent that not all programs that bundle Star Force uninstall them correctly (I haven't tested to see whether the demo cleans up properly or not). I suspect few if ANY do - because otherwise uninstalling the demo would break StarForce for other programs on the system. Maybe the program loader re-installs the drivers if they're missing? I dunno. Either way, this is the third reason people dislike Star Force. It's interfering behavior - blocking debuggers, drive emulators, etc. - often remains even when the protected program is removed.

In short, the arguments FOR such protections are valid in some ways: There are known techniques for copying games, and Star Force goes farther than most in thwarting those techniques.

However, the consumer's points are also valid, and in my opinion, more telling. The user should be presented with clear notice of what Star Force wants to do to their system and possible side effects - they shouldn't be left to wonder why some of their other software/hardware suddenly doesn't work correctly.

Also, as has been pointed out, it is a LOSING proposition that publishers (and some developers) still fail to grasp. You simply cannot thwart an intelligent cracker because you're installing software on his machine, and the first rule of hacking is that a hacker is the lord of his own machine. Tools like Star Force simply cannot work in the long term.

They can reduce piracy - somewhat - by making it harder to crack a game immediately. But, when you add up the benefits there, and weigh them against the hassles to, and the ill-will from, your LEGAL users - and the relative numbers of each - I just don't see how a software vendor can justify the former at the expense of the latter.


heck try this review, albeit minor site its view still valid (scroll down to gripes)http://www.netjak.com/review.php/1021

Personally i had alot problems with beyond divinity also, doubt ill let another SF game touch my computer, thats just personal reference though, ingeneral i just think its a really bad solution to hurt the legal consumers.

quote:

Originally posted by Chris242:
Hate making first post like this hehe but i just dont get this. Wouldnt splinter cell be older SF version also, than what your putting in ?

Yes, it was an older version. The newer version fixed many of the problems associated with the old one. So that means even LESS worries IMO. But regardless, no matter how many facts you post, some people will be scared off no matter what you do. I understand their feelings, but in today's world...this is the price you have to pay to play games on a PC. But in my eyes, if it's a game I really want to play...it's worth it. :O)

quote:

Originally posted by C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s:
I understand their feelings, but in today's world...this is the price you have to pay to play games on a PC. But in my eyes, if it's a game I really want to play...it's worth it. :O)

Sad put true, and cuck is right if you want the game realy bad buy it. I want the game but my principles deny me this

No game with Starforce is ever going to be installed on my Camputer.. EVER.

I got burned and now I might be blowing on cold but I don't really care.

Well, too bad really.
*Hm... lemme check my to buy list:*
*removes UFO: Aftershock*
*removes Heroes V*

At least I'm saving money