This is a thread to all believers that necro creatures are too bad. Maybe isnâ´t too late for fix this faction, and they hear us.
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The Duel Mode isnâ´t a good place to see the balance, but the crude reality is, that even on this place we can see that necro creatures need a boost.

First of all, a magic faction shouldn’t have weak creatures because it lacks on AT and DF; and second, a faction cannot be composed by 7 bad creatures, even if they can be recruited in great numbers.

The really demoralizing thing, is that the only really useful ability of the whole faction is the well-known Vampire’s Life Drain, and it has been castrated.

Zombie = Meat shield, useless.
Spectre = Weak like a fly, and slow like a ****
Vampire = Not bad, but not enough
Lich = Good shooter... if it didnâ´t occupy 4 squares with melee penalty!
Wraith = Good stats, but if a man cannot live by bread alone, a creature cannot live by stats alone… It needs some true useful ability!
Shadow Dragon = The great joke ever seen in HoMM

And skeleton archers… yeah, you can have thousands of them, but is no reason for make 7 bad creatures! All other factions have specials too, and I only see almighty units!!

Oh! Some very interesting: Wraith’s Harm Touch kill only 1 creature and you have to spend a entire turn to do it, but haha… this is very funny, when Balors attack, they can kill 1 creature more thanks to their vorpal sword.

Bye!

PS: Nival, Iâ´m watching you!!
PS2: I will receive english lessons soon, I promise

EDIT: Removed official. Its a highly-overused term.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Alderbranchh,

Your english isnt very bad final_boss

Well, I TOTALLY AGREE WITH YOU. You have reasson Boss... this faction have been ''destroyed''... And i cant imaginate its campaign... imposible to complete! Well nival... i hope you hear this complain...

I agree with you on all terms Final_boss except one thing.How is instant kill worthless ability?
Yeah, I am talking about wraiths.

i agree, that necro needs a boost.
i dont ask for much.
just let the incorporeal ability back to wraiths and shadowdragon. it could be a nice and balanced faction.

quote:

Originally posted by cloud747:
i agree, that necro needs a boost.
i dont ask for much.
just let the incorporeal ability back to wraiths and shadowdragon. it could be a nice and balanced faction.

That would unbalance the faction, this ability is too powerful... but if the ability is reduced in power... then we will have a great faction...

Since they took away the incorporeal ability from wraiths and spectral dragons they should replace it with something. I suggest those two creatures should be magic resistant; e.g. 30%.

OR

Make the incorporeal ability work a bit different for these two; when the miss triggers (from incorporeal) the creature take only, let's say, 50% of the damage.

Yes, I agree too - compared to the other factions and corresponding creature tiers the Necropolis is left lacking, badly!

Zombies need to sustain more damage - the absolutely only good thing they are good for, i.e. being meatshields, has to be boosted in adequate fashion.

Spectres - well, even with corporeal it is a russian rullette whether they will die immediately or two turns later and since they don't deal a lot of damage... I somehow treat them as a very, very weak meatshiled with no specific purpose on the battefield - what are they supposed to be good at exactly?

Wraiths? Well - their stats are not good enough considering how lacking they are in the ability department - the touch ability is not even offensive - to use it you have to be by the enemy creatures first and they always kill only one creature irrespectively of how many Wraiths there are in the stack...

I really think Wraiths need something - incorporeal is said to overpower them, well - seeing what bonuses the other faction creatures of the same tier offer I'm not so sure - just have a look at the Balor and tell me they are supposed to be worth the same... Instead of incorporeal maybe Wraiths should revive (raise dead) one (1) Wraith when they use their touch - that wouldn't be so bad, is it? Or maybe when touch-killing to transfer a portion of the hitpoints of the victim back to the hero as mana, for after all this is a magic hero faction. Just a couple of ideas.

Spectral Dragons - the joke of the final tier. This unit needs a boost even more than the Wraith. One could offer so many options ranging from making their strike of the kind where they won't receive a counter-attack, to aging the whole enemy stack, to incorporeal to some degree, spell-caster of a few mass spells (mass-curse?), reduce enemy morale by -1 or -2 (for normal/upgraded dragons respectively) and so on. Anything really.

As for vampires - they are already there, they need a very small boost, either to damage, hitpoits or preferably initiave. There isn't a single good initiavite unit in the Necropolis - why?

Well, my few cents worth of ideas.

quote:

balance, but the crude reality is, that even on this place we can see that necro creatures need a boost.

Agrees

i don't know if necropolis needs a boost...but i know for sure that necro creatures needs to be improved.

my suggestion:


BLACK KNIGHTS!!!!!!

I think you all overlook the fact that Necro can convert everything to undead of the same tier. So that means that Necro creatures MUST be among the weakest for each tier and have to come over numbers. It's as simple as that.

quote:

Originally posted by Jolly-Joker:
I think you all overlook the fact that Necro can convert everything to undead of the same tier. So that means that Necro creatures MUST be among the weakest for each tier and have to come over numbers. It's as simple as that.

From where do you take the creatures to convert? Diplomacy? Another town? To take another town from which you can get higher tires than lvl1 and lvl2 you need and army which can beat the other towns lvl3-7. Dimplomacy is kind of unpredictable, an building your strategy on it is very risky.

I agree with the first post that vampires and wright's specials should be strengthen and perhaps the stats of the dragons too.

I will wiat for creature growth numbers and other campaign aspects that I havent seen yet, be4 I make up my mind, the duelhero sure is weak though.

I would:
- Give the spectral dragons back the incorporal ability, I don't know why the removed it - it's not like it's good at anything else.
- Harm Touch should ressurect one wraith (if one was killed in the battle)
- Increase the zombies stats and growth:
defense: 3 (upgraded 5)
damage: 1-2 (upgraded 2-3)
HP: 20 (upgraded 25)
Growth: 22
cost: 35 (upgraded 40)
That would make them a better meet shield
- Increase the ghosts stats and growth:
HP: 15 (upgraded 20)
Growth: 11
That would make them more durable

In general, the Undeads need a lot more HP!

quote:

Originally posted by HealingAura:
I would:
- Give the spectral dragons back the incorporal ability, I don't know why the removed it - it's not like it's good at anything else.
- Harm Touch should ressurect one wraith (if one was killed in the battle)
- Increase the zombies stats and growth:
defense: 3 (upgraded 5)
damage: 1-2 (upgraded 2-3)
HP: 20 (upgraded 25)
Growth: 22
cost: 35 (upgraded 40)
That would make them a better meet shield
- Increase the ghosts stats and growth:
HP: 15 (upgraded 20)
Growth: 11
That would make them more durable

In general, the Undeads need a lot more HP!

First I agree;

Skeletons:They are fine,not the best but they are fine.

zombies:Too slow(which they should be in my opinion) but that weakening strike should be improved.Something caught by the zombie should suffer,probably could be some slowing affect.They should be better meat shields

Specters:They are not the best unit out there but I think them as filling the "the worst unit of its level" place for necro.We all know that there is going to be a worst level in all levels so let this be specter for level 3 I wouldnt mind.

Wampires:Should are a bit underpowered.The idea behind wampire numbers is stupid.They should be not numerous but few and powerfull.Bring back those into 2nd place among its group or 3rd maybe.But I dont want the cheesy wampires return either,they should be killed but they should also inflict good amount of damage.

Liches:They do the shooting well but their large structure is painfull.Also their spell selection is very weak how can a sprite cast phatom image,dispel and wasp swarm while masters of death magic cast so useless spells.They should be related to necromancy(like raising zombies specters;please no more skeletons) or decreasing enemy morale or initiative.Simply It should make players choose rather than otomaticaly deal damage with area effect range damage.

Wraith:Although statics are good it ought to be good to balance the weak 7th level.If you want a weak 7th level this creature has to be 7th level killer,it should be better.Also why remove the incorporal ability?It already head low hp.The harm touch is useless if not dependent on creature number.It should increase slightly with popullation lets say 1 increase for 6 weeks available.Or it should have a secondary effect like freezing the enemy or decreasing its morale cumulatively when it damages.So this wraith needs a twist.

Specter Dragon:Okay I respect the game developers to make Specter Dragons weak but numerous.But the problem is that a 7th levels job could be "never" be a meatshield.Okay maybe they are not so good at killing which is okay with me but they should be an agressive creature for being last level.They should be more tactical which they are not at the moment.Incorporal ability just made them tougher and helped them to not get killed.But what we need is another way of agressivness.Maybe the creatures get attacked by should be effected by massive drawback like;-2 to morale(cumulative) chance to freeze in terror,or decrease in damage.Also it should not be a mass thing like enemy army gets -1 morale since it would kill the tactical opportunities.And also being cheap doesn't help so much either.
So my idea about specteral dragon to be a true level 7 is;
-Numerous
-Low in damage,attack,initiative,deals below low damage
-Tough to kill(incorporality back)
-Massive penalty to the creature attacked

Overall necro right know lacks the spirit of saying you got that troop but look we have X at level Y.Back in Heroes 3 I found fortress very weak in line up but at 5th level there is the Mighty Gorgon which every castle wanted to have.Thats the thing I am talking about,where this creaturefor necro now?In the past there were dreathknights and wampires but now all the creatures are at second place.We want at least one creature that shines over other race not by its number but its abilities,might and felixiability.And given the fact that the 7th level is so weak this must be the 6th level to carry the flag.

Necromancy and Leadership:Please change the usage of leadership.It simply doesnt help and leadership is very deciding in game.Make so that it gives negative morale to the defending army rather than positive to the necromancers.Also I think necromancy should also raise zombies.Rather than having insane number of skeletons and people complainig how powerfull they are we could get a more even army.

I agree. they are too weak.
How about Incorporeal that works like that:
against units of the same level: 20% and for lower level creatures it increases by 5%. So dragon:
20%,25%,30%,35%,40%,45%,50%
Minimum is 20% and max 50%
wright:
20%,20%,25%,30%,35%,40%,45%
ghost/spectre:
30%,35%,40%
ghosts are special, because they have low stasts, so they need to have something. or use standard 20%+5%/lvl and update their stats.

Naskonni:

quote:

Spectres - well, even with corporeal it is a russian rullette whether they will die immediately or two turns later and since they don't deal a lot of damage... I somehow treat them as a very, very weak meatshiled with no specific purpose on the battefield - what are they supposed to be good at exactly?

Well they drain mana which can ruin some creature spellcasters utterly bad. Other than that, they are like u say a russian roulette, but if they are many and survive many attacks from their incorporeal ability, then they are a deadly weapon!

BUT! I agree to almost everything said above. The thing is that I think necro will be fine when playing a normal game, but in duel mode they really need more creatures to stand up to the rest. But I have played them many times in duelmode now and they own Heaven and Dungeon in duel... but the other ones are hard to face I think.

First off I this is not any petition thread, so if someone had some constructive criticism against your statements, I don't see why he/she shouldn't post.

Having said that, the duel has nothing to do with balance. You get some weird creature numbers to fight some other army with weird creature numbers. What necromancer has ~250 skeletons side by side with 12 Wraiths? What Warlock has 45 Matrons/Matriarchs, 200 Blood Furies, 60 Grim raiders and.. nothing else? I don't think it's appropriate even to mention the words duel and town balance in the same topic.

Now onto the necromancer, I do share some concerns with the town, but in my opinion the situation isn't nearly as grave as described in some of the above posts (and the OP's post).

Whith all this whining nobody is actually saying - "hey, our skeletons get to SHOOT". This is a tremendeous advantage by itself. Up till now huge skeleton armies were deadly, but slow at pace, now they are fast (good init) and you can just obliderate the enemy from a distance.

Zombies - yea they are slow fat and all, but I don't think they serve the purpose wrong - they are numerous and resistant to damage, the perfect unit to soak retilations for your weaker troops. The weakness is just a bonus. I don't see anything wrong here.

Ghosts - I've had streaks of 5 misses on them and no serious player will target a large stack of ghosts with anything but spells. You say they are russian roulette, well they are, but for the other player. Wasting attacks is the fastest way to lose.

Vampires - nothing needs to be said here.

Liches - excellent shooter and plague is very good. If you don't like them being 2 squares get tactics and put a zombie in front of them, problem solved. Nothing wrong with them.

Wraiths - Need some small buff, I agree, but nothing drastic. Perhaps -1 to luck on all surrounding enemy creatures.

Shadow Dragons - you get 4 of them a week. Maybe some minor bonus, like remove curse and put a chance for some small aging effect that can stack. Definetly NOT incorporeality, at least not at the level of the ghosts.

Overall I think the necromancer is in need on some smaller tweaks, but then again, every other town does as well.

quote:

Originally posted by Infiltrator-SF:
First off I this is not any petition thread, so if someone had some constructive criticism against your statements, I don't see why he/she shouldn't post.

........

Overall I think the necromancer is in need on some smaller tweaks, but then again, every other town does as well.

u judge all those units with their stats and number, have u considered of the usage in realbattle?

1.skeleton is nummerous , but in heroes V the rule is ,low tier creature is quite useless against high lvl tier , u can feel it in the combat, the effective way to kill nummerous low tier is ,killing them with high tier units ,and u wont get hurt by retaliation, so its fair unit with its nummber

2. zambie ,as u said, should be a meatshield, but! with its initiative 6/speed 3 ??!! the reality is zambie take his first action,when half troops r gone , he take his second action , when he is the only 1 left.no one cares if he is on the battlegroud. so ...its compeletely useless units, but i can accept ,if nival give us better reason.

3.ghosts, ye, mana drain is nice , how many times have u used in combat? magic caster wont stand front let u hit , man. they always stay behind, ghosts get killed before get there. so , its not nice as u thought, but i can accept, lvl 3 cant aspect too much

4. vampire, its fair in V with its low dmg

5. lich with its foolish 4 square, not nice as u thought either. u cant splite them into many group,because u dont have enough slots, so decay cant be mass-cast. and u can forget his area effect shooting ablility, comparing with decay, he is just a caster on the battlegroud.
but its fair, i dont ask for more.

6. wraith. lets talk about the real combat again. how many times have u used the harm touch in combat? u have to get close to the target to use this ability,
if u r stronger than target , why not just hit?
if the target u r facing is as strong as ur wraiths, u will be killed if u just use harm touch.
if u r weaker than target, mostly u got killed in next round
so the only situation to use it is, u r near to death , get last strike, or its 1-wraiths -vs-1-angel combat. do u still think ,its useful skill?

another question? what will it happend , when wraith meets paladin?

7. shadowdragon , everyone knows its a joke.

at last but not at least. necro dont have any units can across the battlefield with 1 move, do u know what it means? u got half troops left , when u first time hit ur opponent.

Can Slight improvement solve all those problems?!

This message has been edited. Last edited by: cloud747,

quote:

Originally posted by Infiltrator-SF:
First off I this is not any petition thread, so if someone had some constructive criticism against your statements, I don't see why he/she shouldn't post.

........

Overall I think the necromancer is in need on some smaller tweaks, but then again, every other town does as well.

Touche.

Besides, I agree partially, and disagree partially, so again, no point in your statement.