Without even having played the beta (no, open-beta hasn't started) I feel very skeptical about the current rock-paper-scissor implemetation. I understand that beta does NOT mean final product, hence I start the discussion now to hopefully be able to influence the dev's a bit.

Arguments against Type Bonus System (current) :
Doesn't feel very original, seems like a system I've seen before in both browser games and light-weight standalone-games.

Doesn't make much sense in the Heroes-setting. Flyers will be counted as cavalry, hence infantry will have a bonus against them. To me it would seem very advantageous to be ably to fly and pick off some soldiers on the ground. What I would be afraid of if I was flying would be shooters.

50% bonus (Yeah, I realize you might balance that one) is quite a lot, thus, it will diminish the importance of other stats too much, what becomes most important in battle is having the right type of creature in relation to the enemy.

<insert your argument here>

Arguments for Type Bonus System (current) :
Low amount of calculations = cheaper servers.

Easy to understand, help new people a lot.

<insert your argument here>

Replacement proposisitions:

Crude HoMM-battle simulation:

-You still match creature vs. creature as in the current system.

-Scrap all type vs. type bonuses. Simply use speed and initiative to calculate # of shots before shooters are in melee. (Cavalry tend to be faster, less amount of shots for shooters. This makes shooters weak vs. cavalry but strong vs. most melee)

Example:
Gridsize = 12 squares wide.
ShooterInitiative = 12
ShooterSpeed = 4
TestBunnyInitiative = 11
TestBunnySpeed = 7

Round #1:
Shooter win initiative, fire 1 shot (obstructed).
TestBunny jumps as far as he can. (7 squares)

Round #2:
Shooter fires one more shot, this time full-damage.
TestBunny gobbles up Shooter.

Cavalry vs. Infantry is more tricky in order to get a good bonus for one. IIRC infantry tends to have a bit higher def in earlier homm-versions to counter-act this? That would be my solution too.

System isn't very complicated (Maybe something more refined is already in place? Great in that case, just remove the bonus then, or put it in a skill or something) but creates more diversity in fights without too much calculation. Problems might be that it isn't that obvious a system to tell from the battle screen in the browser.

Time will tell how beta looks!

Fun facts: This post was written and thought up during 5 turns waiting for the AI in H5. Any responses welcome (except for "i cant log in to beta! whats wrong?").

Well my biggest surprise was that they didn't include flying as a type just made it cavalry. They even had a minigame(forgot the name) where they had those 4 types.

I would say that you can be skeptical but only by seeing the whole picture(playing the game, understanding it's mechanics, getting some gameplay experience) you can decide if you like it or not.
There might be more to it there might be not but the devs surely aren't revealing everything about the game which can affect how the combat plays out

Of course

Perhaps a lot will change after closed beta is finished aswell!

It's a matter of simplicity as far as i see it. Sure they could do it more advanced and all that, but since this is meant to draw in plenty of people and thus also do some strain on the servers, it works best if it simple.

Remember it is just an online browser game

Yep I do! On the other hand, to draw more people than other browser games you need to be something special. Sure, HoMM-K can ride upon the wave of earlier titles, but only so far.

It isn't _that_ many more calculations, I can't imagine regular +-*/ would prove too much stress on modern processors. Floating point calcs, yes, lets avoid them.

I'm for the more advanced system instead of the archer-infantry-cavalry system... The more parameters you have to take into account, the more interesting it gets for me. Also it adds more realism to the game.

I agree with targ212.

After thinking about the need for simple rules to understand, I also realized that having the 50% rule (now then, this argument only works if this % is high) kind of REQUIRES you to learn the rule , since the effects are so large. Smaller bonus system (like I believe my system is, without having cracked any numbers for it) makes it less important to know, since its just about min/maxing and not a decision that would determine between a win and a lose.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Luceat,

One interesting thing that the Fire Emblem series does is use a paper-rock-scissors system based on weapon class (sword vs. spear vs. axe) rather than on unit type. At the same time however, unit types have weapon proficiencies, so to do maximum damage you'd to not only match the correct weapon types against each other, but also the correct kind of unit for that weapon.

I could see this working in the HOMM context if you took the approach that a "cavalry charge" or "flying dive attack" was more of a "weapon" than an inherent property of the unit. In this way, you could have your archers being at their best with a ranged bow attack, but also have a back-up melee capability which could be ideal against magic attackers for instance. You also want to avoid issues of initiative and so forth in an online strategy game because you have to assume that a player might not actually be present for the combat.

All that said, I think it is great that HOMM:K has this level of combat strategy at all! Other games like Ikariam and Travian basically just come down to who can pump out the most troops. That isn't about strategy, it's about collecting resources.

In this way, HOMM:K's "simple" combat is still going to be a lot more interesting than in other games. And it shouldn't be too complicated anyway. From what I can tell, HOMM:K will place far more emphasis on strategic movement. That, more than anything, is the essence of the HOMM series.

Am I the only one who is bothered by "develop your kingdom without any limits , enter the rankings and be a part of the story, one of our main objectives is to ensure the game is balanced" ?

Maybe it's not a big thing and I would subscribe anyway but to me it sounds like paying members do get a gameplay advantage and this "be a part of the story" thing also sounds like you are missing out on the fun or is it just me ?

Wouldn't it be an idea to start a new thread about that ? because it has little relevance to this discussion.

quote:

Originally posted by vizier.mv:
You also want to avoid issues of initiative and so forth in an online strategy game because you have to assume that a player might not actually be present for the combat.

I was more thinking about initiative as a basis for the calculations. I.e. who hits who first. It should be fully automated.

Not that I know if this would be even remotely compatible with the rest of the combat code.

The strategy is indeed a big thing for this game, even bigger I guess than the predescessors. Though, you shouldn't let another part of the game suffer just cause you've made one part perfectly

wpn vs. wpn is an interesting notion aswell... but I believe there might be a tad bit too many classes in HoMM. (unarmed, caster (or maybe even different magic schools), sword, axe, spear, halberd, bow, crossbow etc. You could ofc merge several into one

Edit: fixed quote

Good point, and I guess in a certain way a hero's combat stats (attack, defense, magic power) as modified by items effectively work as a sort of "weapons system" in the sense that a hero equipped with stronger attack power will do more damage, like the same way a sword hero in Fire Emblem will have a damage advantage over a axe hero.

Don't forget too that combat will also have this mysterious "deserter" mechanism where a hero who fights well will get to keep more of his troops. I think in this way each fight (like in regular HOMM) will be the attempt to get it really perfect and to minimize losses. In this way, the combat model can be less detailed (initiative, ranged calculations, "weapons", etc.) but still strategically intense as the player tries to factor in every single detail to ensure the best outcome. Again, in my experience, this has always been a hallmark of the HOMM series. I certainly have been known to reload battles that I knew I could do more perfectly!