hey i was just wonderin' about other peoples opinions about a dogfight between a Mcdonnell Dougalas F-15C and a Lockheed Martin F-16C. i personally think that the F-15 can win if the pilot can make it an energy fight and not a turning fight ( the f-15 is faster, and has more thrust ) but on the other hand if the F-15 pilot fails to do so, the F-16 will tear him up in a turning fight. not sure though, so i'd like some opinions.

These questions are always pretty silly cause the answer is always the same... it depends.

It depends on 50 different things from altitude to pilot skill...

As you said if the F-15 pilot does smart things he wins, if the F-16 pilot does smart things he wins... so pitting planes against each other doesn't make much sense...

yeah, ur right it is kinda silly.

oh yeah i forgot to add, this is the video from which i am deriving the question
http://youtube.com/watch?v=INb-421E-mo

First, forget that video, it is from an IMAX movie called "Red Flag" or is about red flag I think the link is www.fighterpilot.com or something like that. You don't see a real dogfight there just planes doing passes so that the fotografer can take some nice shots.

I am no expert, you really need to overlay the F15 performance curve and the F16 curve ontop to get an idea of ideal airspeed that beats the other in either radius or degree/second, aerodynamics and engine performance curves if you want to study the energy fightnig part.

And I don't have the answers for that other than what I believe. And I believe the F16 has a more efficient airframe but it needs to be flown on the numbers more than the F15, and the F16 probably does not like it if the pilot bleeds of to much speed since it probably have some difficulty in getting that speed back while maneuvering hard. The F15 has more engine power and probably has less problems with that.

Personally I am also thinking of other features like the F16 having a FBW system that is on all the time so you can not do any fancy stuff other than fly it scientifically on the numbers.

F15, it has been said on this forum before, does not have a FBW system and allows the pilot to crank the nose around, but not like a Sukhoi, still seems the F15 pilot has more cards to play than a F16 pilot. If he allows the F16 to fly at peak performance, I don't know, but maybe the F16 can beat the F15 then, but if the F15 varies speed he could perhaps upset the F16 pilots plans.

I also have a feeling the F16 likes hi-speed fighting just as much as the F15, but there are only three fighters that have the endurance to do hi-speed fighting sustained, F14, F15, and Su27.

I don't remember how the CATI - CATIII works and what CAT a F16 with external fuel tanks is in .... if I remember right you need CATI for maximum performance WVR dogfighting.

I guess the F15 wins.

I hope though that someone comes along and explain this in more detail .....

/Thomas

It depends on who sees who first, also; if you're talking about a "pure" dogfight, 1 v. 1, or, as some jockeys call it, a "knife fight", then probably the F-16. It has a better instantaneous (but not sustained) turning capability.

However, if the -15 "sees" the -16 further out (say 25+ miles, which it will), the -15 will probably opt to launch it's AIM-120's from out there, and take out the -16 before it becomes a "knife fight".

I don't know why quite many people call it a dogfight when using missiles WVR.

I always call it a dogfight what happens after the merge.

Dogs don't fight each other barking at a distance. They have their teeth sunk into each other neck wrestling.

Thats a dogfight in my opinion, almost the only mode in which WWII fighters seen each other and is turning into each other.

If it is about seeing and not seeing each other it does not matter what aircraft you are flying as long as it is faster than the one you want to shoot down.

Let me just lead with the obligatory "I'm not a real world expert on either"

F-15C pilots train ONLY air to air. (Except for that handful that maintained skills for air to ground missions up til like the 90's.)

F-15C has greater thrust, speed, radar strength, airframe sturdiness, nose pointing authority, air to air weapons load, wing size/sustained turn rate, fuel load...

F-16C pilots have a better view.

F-16C has greater stability, acceleration (I think), instantaneous turn rate; lesser radar cross section (by a dubious amount), fuel consumption (with it's one engine)

This is all pretty pointless without EM charts, but I'd say the F-16 is more agile and maybe a little quicker, but probably weaker in a sustained, climbing turn; at higher altitudes where bigger wings and more thrust count for more; in a drawn out fight where it will bingo fuel faster; beyond visual range.

Who will win in a WVR fight between these two aircraft, with equally-experienced pilots, depends on the altitude of the engagement. Down low, the Viper has the advantage...up high, the advantage goes to the Eagle. Its all about strengths and weaknesses and forcing your opponent to play in your sandbox. An all-encompassing "Who would win?" question is unanswerable.

BTW...it hasn't been the "McDonnell-Douglas Eagle" for quite a while now. The F-15 design is now owned by MDs old, arch-enemy, Boeing. MD made great military aircraft, but their civilian aircraft sucked hairy rocks. Hence the old addage for airliners..."If it ain't Boeing, I ain't going."

Well ... robo_cop ..... actually, the Su-27 have microscopically lower drag and microscopycally better sustained turn rate and instantaneous .... and it is also able to turn tighter ..... and the Su30 - 37 are also able to sustain 10G ..... and they are 10 years younger than the F-15 .... only I guess only the 35 and the 37 are on par with the F-15Cs radar??? Anybody, please tell me the Su-30 is also on-par ... they must be ..... otherwise it would be like ...... well .....

"Look Ma, I can dance ..... "
HEAD SHOT !!!!! Su-27 DOMINATED by F15 Su27-KILLER ....

The Sues can't be that bad can they ...... though it is a very nice air-frame .... aerodynamically ....


MDs civilian aircraft sucked hary-rocks???? how can a rock be hairy .... that sounds really hairy ....

Maybe their civilian division contained all mistakes they made while recruiting and they didn't want them in the military division ... so they transfered all of "them" to the civilian division ... actually .... that doesn't sound right .... what if a civilian aircraft crashed .... public wouldn't like that ..... but on the other hand .... if no one baught the MD civilian aircraft then it would be OK ..... but then again .... MD ... rings a bell .... actually I guess the sold plenty plenty of aircrafts .... tell me .... is the MD-110 .... first of all ... does it exist ?? .... second is it a MD aircraft .... and third .... does it suck hair rocks????

no .... I am not serious .... just likes to play ....