I got info from this page http://aeroweb.lucia.it/~agretch/RAFAQ/23vs15.html let me know what ya'll think.

What the second guy in the thread wrote (about an F-15 being hit by a MiG-21's missile) is thought provoking, if it's true.

Both pilot and plane survived and made it back to base. Even if the hit was critical, should this be a 'kill'?

Do we call it a kill?



Message Edited on 07/21/02 10:30PM by Unicorn69

If it crashes or disintegrate in air, then you can call it a KILL. This article is really old one, I saw it more than 4 years ago, and I think this incident really occured. In fact, I'm sure that MD has exploited this F-15 survival as an example of robustness and durability. It's the same story like "wingless" F-15 salvage back in 80's (Israeli F-15 collided with A-4 losing almost whole starboard wing, it managed to land, plane was repaired and declared airworthy).

Apart from this fact, F-15 has scored some really bizzarre kills. For instance, in Desert Storm, F-15C "made" MIG-29 crash into desert floor, or F-15E plinking a Helo with LGB...

Njinsa wrote:
- Apart from this fact, F-15 has scored some really
- bizzarre kills. For instance, in Desert Storm, F-15C
- "made" MIG-29 crash into desert floor, or F-15E
- plinking a Helo with LGB...
-


strangely enough, there is such a thing called a "maneuver kill". it is awarded if a maneuver you made caused your rival to fly into the ground, and you don't even have to fire a bullet to earn it. i cannot validate that this is what actually happened in these cases, but you should be very careful the side you choose. if the f15 can down a chopper with a lgb, then imagine the accuracy of the agm's!



The TruthTeller.

"I come here in peace to learn and to teach; for I am the truth teller; the teller of truths." - TruthTeller
"Let no man stand between himself and the truth." - TruthTeller
"The truth is out there." - Fox Mulder

Gulf War Kills officially recognized by the USAF Special Order GA-1 dated 27 March 1991, and HQCENTCOM message to HQUSAFE 301350Z May 91.

17 January 1991

Capt Steven W. Tate Capt Jon K. Kelk

1st TFW/71st TFS 33rd TFW/58th TFS

F-15C F-15C

(1) F-1 Mirage (1) MiG-29

Capt Robert E. Graeter Capt Charles J. Magill (USMC)

33rd TFW/58th TFS 33rd TFW/58th TFS

F-15C F-15C

(2) Mirage F-1 (1) MiG-29

Capt Rhory R. Draeger

33rd TFW/58th TFS

F-15C

(1) MiG-29


19 January 1991

Capt Lawrence E. Pitts Capt Richard C. Tollini

33rd TFW/58th TFS 33rd TFW/58th TFS

F-15C F-15C

(1) MiG-25 (1) MiG-25

Capt Richard C. Tollini Capt Craig W. Underhill

33rd TFW/58th TFS 33rd TFW/58th TFS

F-15C F-15C

(1) MiG-25 (1) MiG-29

Capt Cesar A. Rodriguez Capt David S. Prather

33rd TFW/58th TFS 36th TFW/525th TFS

F-15C F-15C

(1) MiG-29 (1) Mirage F-1

Lt David G. Sveden Jr.

36th TFW/525th TFS

F-15C

(1) Mirage F-1


26 January 1991

Capt Rhory R. Draeger Capt Anthony E. Schiavi

33rd TFW/58th TFS 33rd TFW/58th TFS

F-15C F-15C

(1) MiG-23 (1) MiG-23

Capt Cesar A. Rodriguez

33rd TFW/58th TFS

F-15C

(1) MiG-23


27 January 1991

Capt Jay T. Denny Capt Benjamin D. Powell

36th TFW/53th TFS 36th TFW/53rd TFS

F-15C F-15C

(1) MiG-23 (1) MiG-23/(1) Mirge F-1


28 January 1991

Capt Donald S. Waltrous

32nd TFW/32nd TFS

F-15C

(1) MiG-23


29 Janaury 1991

Capt David G. Rose

33rd TFW/58th TFS

F-15C

(1) MiG-23


02 February 1991

Capt Gregory P. Masters

36th TFW/53rd TFS

F-15C

(1) IL-76


06 February 1991

Lt Robert W. Hehemann Capt Thomas N. Dietz

36th TFW/53rd TFS 36th TFW/53rd TFS

F-15C F-15C

(2) Su-25's (2) MiG-21's

Capt Robert R. Swain

926th TFW/706th TFS

A-10A

Observation Helo


07 February 1991

Capt Anthony R. Murphy Col Rick N. Parsons

33rd TFW/58th TFS 33rd TFW/58th TFS

F-15C F-15C

(2) Su-7/17 (1)Su-7/17

Maj Randy W. May

36th TFW/525th TFS

F-15C

(1) Attack Helo


11 February 1991

Capt Steven B. Dingee Capt Mark T. McKenzie

36th TFW/525th TFS 10th TFW/511th TFS

F-15C F-15C

0.5 Attack Helo 0.5 Attack Helo


15 February 1991

Capt Todd E. Sheeny

10th TFW/511th TFS

A-10

(1) Mi-8


20 March 1991

Capt John T. Doneski

36th TFW/525th TFS

F-15C

(1) Su-22


22 March 1991

Capt Thomas N. Dietz Lt Robert W. Hehemann

36th TFW/525th TFS 36th TFW/525th TFS

F-15C F-15C

(1) Su-22 (1) PC-9

RODRIGUEZ, CESAR A. LTC 493 EFS 1 24031999
MIG-29 F-15C AIM-120 16 ASETF SO#GF-024, 23 AUG 1999

SHOWER, MICHAEL K. CPT 493 EFS 1 24031999
MIG-29 F-15C AIM-120 16 ASETF SO#GF-024, 23 AUG 1999

HWANG, JEFFERY C. J. CPT 493 EFS 2 26031999
MIG-29s F-15C AIM-120s 16 ASETF SO#GF-024, 23 AUG 1999

GECZY, MICHAEL H. LTC 78 EFS 1 04051999
MIG-29 F-16CJ AIM-120 16 ASETF SO#GF-024, 23 AUG 1999

Correct. 2 of 3 were shotdown almost instantly. Their radar's were out, being guided from GCI only. I have scanned bitmap image of serbian magazine. One pilot died, the other one has a story to tell. According to this pilot, it was a suicidal mission. They took off 'cause it was important to shoot anything in order to claim kill over NATO. Still airborne, pilot saw 4 smoke trails, but he made miss ID for Tomahawks. It was too late, he dodged the first one, but there was a second blasting in close proximity. He ejected and luckily touched down in serbian controlled area. He missed muslim controlled area for a quarter of a mile...

I don't know if the 3rd kill by F-15C made element with the 4th MIG-29, but this one actually fired a salvo of Archers at F-15's. They missed (obviously) and became Slammer food. BTW, the first 2 were MIG-29Ms, the only one in service. The remainder of the fleet, some 15 MIG-29As, were cut in half - destroyed in HAS or tarmac.

@Njinsa,
MiG-29M?? You have any sources for that?

The Tallies above are Official USAF Aerial Victories and do not include NATO engagements.

Ninjasa you may be refering to the Dutch F16 MLU Kill.

The Official USAF Kills are all Mig29A (however) NSTC radar still classified as Mig 29...It has been speculated that there was a varient shot down.

Yes. Since I live in Croatia, we learn all this details from the days of serbian agression. In the hard way, of course. I'll fill you in here.

Back in mid 80's, the Russian debt to former Yugoslavia was partially cleared by the acquisition of some 12 MIG-29 A Fulcrums. They were based at Batajnica AFB, some 20 miles away from Belgrade. The main role of this unit was air defence of Belgrade and it's industrial complex. These a/c were delivered with fair ordnance, including Alamo and Archer missiles. At the down of a agression on Vukovar, Yugoslavia, still federal state, obtained few (#?) MIG-29A Fulcrums and a pair of MIG-29Ms. I can confirm this since there was a picture of Yugoslav MIG-29M with the "Knights" tailmarks. During war in Croatia, back in 1991-1992 we (Croatia) managed to shoot down 3 MIG-29s, I belive all of them being A model (2 kills by SA-16 Gimlet "Igla", and 3rd one got into 30mm AAA crossfire). In later years, we learned that Serbs were experiencing a great deal of trouble getting spare parts for downed a/c. There was a rumor that after war in Croatia, they had only 5 airworthy a/c, A models all of them. This situation lasted to the Op AF, when they lose 4 units in dogfight and 4 additional in ground attack. I think there's no more Ms around.


Stay cool


P.S.

There was a gun-camera video showing MIG-29 destruction on the ground. I found it at fas.org. Now, I'll try to search .hr domain, maybe there will be something nice to translate just to back me up here.

Njinsa wrote:

"Yugoslavia, still federal state, obtained
- few (#?) MIG-29A Fulcrums and a pair of MIG-29Ms. I
- can confirm this since there was a picture of
- Yugoslav MIG-29M with the "Knights" tailmarks. "

Well then would you please submit the above mentioned picture?

I am sorry but that is abosolute nonsense! - there are no operational MIG-29Ms anywhere in the world - not even in Russia. There are only 6 MIG-29M(9-15) prototypes in existence - board # 151-156. These RSK MIG are currently using as basis for development of new M-variants - e.g. #"154" into the new MIG-29M2 two-seat variant, the #"156" into the new MIG-29 "OVT" TVC variant - both on display during the recent MAKS-2001.

Anyway, what makes you say that the picture you saw was of a Yugoslav MIG-29M?

Jens "alfa" Johansen

Well, I'm not an MIG-29 expert (that's for sure), but the pair of MIGs I was referring to was indeed a Yugo a/c. Maybe it's called MIG-29S or something similar. I belive an export version has some designation. I have no access to Janes annual publications, but there should be something about it. IMHO, I don't care if it's M or S or SE as long as it resembles a fact being upgraded, more capable a/c than the rest of Fulcrum force in FRY.
But in the other hand, I wouldn't be surprised if this was just one of many serbian lies. They're very good in doing such things.


P.S.

Yes, I'm still digging for that BMP (a huge one)

Njinsa wrote:

"Maybe it's called MIG-29S or something
- similar. I belive an export version has some
- designation."

"... I don't care if it's M or S or SE as long
- as it resembles a fact being upgraded, more capable
- a/c than the rest of Fulcrum force in FRY.
- But in the other hand, I wouldn't be surprised if
- this was just one of many serbian lies. They're very
- good in doing such things."


LOL: Njinsa, there is a world of difference between the MIG-29S(the export designation is MIG-29SE) and the MIG-29M

MIG-29M(9-15) features:

Totally re-designed airframe with large single piece airbrake, new FOD protection system, extra fueltanks, 9 hard points. New more powerful engines(RD-33K), quadruplex fly-by-wire control system, HOTAS cockpit environment with two CRT displays.

Avionics:

Multifunctional N010 Zhuk radar/SUV-29M firecontrol system with new fast data processor. The radar has a +/- 90 degree scan area(in azimuth) and features a synthetic terrain mapping/avoidance mode, TWS a2a mode with multi targeting capability - simultaneous track of 10 and engagement of 4 targets up to a range of 90 km. It supports deployment of RVV-AE a2a- and Kh-31A anti ship ARH missiles.

The OLS-M - a new improved optronic system, with an added a2g capability. It comprises a new super cooled IR sensor coupled to a TV camera, new laser range finder/-designator, which not only extends the range in CAC engagements but also enables deployment of laser- and TV guided a2g munitions(e.g. Kh-29L/-TE and KAB-500).

Gardenia-1 automated countermeasures suite comprising: "Parol" IFF, active jammer, L-150 Pastel RWR which controls the decoy(chaff/flare) release and provides target acquisition for the Kh-31P anti radar missile.

The MIG-29S "Fulcrum C"(9-12S/9-13) - the export designation is MIG-29SE - is a modest upgrade of the basic MIG-29 "Fulcrum A"(9-12). Which, among other things, adds a little extra fuel- and payload. In terms of systems the MIG-29S has the N019M radar, which, compared with the original N019 radar, basically adds the ability to support the AVV-AE missile. The MIG-29S also has the Gardenia-1 suite developed for the MIG-29M.

Anyway, Yugoslavia obtained a total of some 16 MIG-29s - 14 MIG-29Bs(export version of basic 9-12) + 2 MIG-29UB trainers. Of these 6 were downed, 1 crashed and 4 were destroyed on the ground during the Kosovo conflict - leaving about 5 aircraft operational. Although I couldn't be 100% sure, I am not aware of there ever being any MIG-29S/SE with the Yugo airforce. AFAIK the only operators of the upgraded MIG-29S(and subversions) are: Russia, India, Malaysia and Peru. But I am dead certain that no MIG-29Ms were have been deployed anywhere else but the RSK MIG test facilities in Russia

Jens "alfa" Johansen

If I remember right, the russians tried to send 6 "Fulcrum" to serbia during the kosovo war, but they were stopped.

Well, if you belive this one:

http://www.warinfo.org.yu/natodown.html

then they could have something more & better than just 16 MIG-29 A/B combo


At the other hand, I would prefer this one:

http://www.star.co.yu/armtech/pages/tekst003.htm

The first link is absoloutly ****! There were no german F-4F Phantom's in the kosovo...

Njinsa wrote:
- Well, if you belive this one:
-
- then they could have something more & better than
- just 16 MIG-29 A/B combo ..."

Well I dont according to that page it seems that Yugoslavia maneged to down half the Nato air assets . It is a horrible example of what happens when you loose your objectivity and start analysing something based on your political or national preferences - tryingto make actual world events fit into these


"...At the other hand, I would prefer this one:"

wouldnt know - the page seems to be down

Jens "alfa" Johansen

Note, Hwang won the McCabe trophy for the dual Mig-29 kill, 2 missiles, 2 kills, less then 30 seconds apart...

About Kosovo, what killed those downed Nato planes? (F-117 & F-16). I've read that Serbs claim F-117 was downed by a MiG-29 but I think SAM or AAA is more likely.

SAM downed the F117.
The Mig kills were by the king of the air, the F15-Eagle.