SprStdlySocttsmn,

You are right about the lower AR causing a higher KDI, however, the power is there and the authority is there. It has bigger control surfaces than the Hornet and the Super Hornet.

Like the Hornet, the Super Hornet's control authority degrades at a rapid rate when going over 35 Alpha but at a slower rate than the Legacy. The Raptor has more authority at the higher alpha. With the power to get out of it mind you.

The Psub has reached the 1000f/s with the Raptor. Imagine what the chart looks like at 50% fuel. Think of it this way, the Raptor's performance in MIL is something like the performance of today's jets with AB. Yet, add fuel the cans, you have another animal. The acceleration rates is 2-4 times faster than what the current US offerings.

In speaking of turn performance, the Raptor moves the envelope to higher altitudes. Keep in mind the ATF requirements. While today's aircraft are still in the double digits for STR under FL200, the Raptor is still doing double digit STR at higher altitudes. There's no match in the ITR.

Big wing area matters.

Source: A former USAF/Lockmart TP.

quote:

gfitzpatrick:
The Russian AF is loooking into putting the AL-31F into the MiG-27, increased performance and lower fuel burn.

I believe Mig-27 are in reserve (correct me if I am wrong) awaiting disposal, so why would the VVS upgrade them?

Jewels

Of course your right about the awsome power and HUGE wing area (33% greater than F-15). While I am not exactly privvy to the official Psub charts, I have been able to devise a spreadsheet that gives me close approximationswhen compared to the -1. The only problem with my raptor sheet is I dont know how to include TV into it. But as is, it has the highest ITR and STR, but the ITR is so much higher than the STR that is has a peak Max G decceleration at SL of 2.44G, and that is at an AoA of 30. I know it can do 60 which will send my current data out the window, but I am pretty sure that 60 is a low G thing and not a "hold 60 AoA from 1G up to 9G" thing. I mean the -16 can do 25 AoA, but only at 1G, 20.4 AoA at 7.5G and 15AoA at 9G. The purpose of the AoA-G limiter working like that is SOLEY to preserve Psub. I hope other fighters have a similar system. Psub is life. I can only imagine what the chart REALLY looks like at 50% fuel.

I just want to say thanx to everyone out there who contributes to these intellectual discussions. These forums can be the highlight of my day.

The Scotsman was Here!

SprStdlySocttsmn,

It would be insane to have 60 Alhpa at max. Yes, this occurs at low G. I bet you that UCAV will do that in the future.

ITR is always higher than STR.

You can calculate your own Ps chart provided that you have the thrust and drag correct.

Here is something; while it aids in understanding where to you chose to fight your battles, "chart fighting" can only go so far. Because charts don't list out of envelope situations. Paper don't fight paper.

very true.

quote:

Originally posted by gfitzpatrick:
I have watched HUD tapes from an F-16 where the speed gets down to 120-130kts while dogfighting MiG-29s, the Falcons seem to have no problem with getting the MiGs in their sights in slow fights, But Falcon drivers prefare the higher speed fights. The G force never got above 4G in the dogfights. Although in one high speed turn of 500kts the G force hit 7.2, I was suprise the MiG tried it on at that speed.

where can I find some of these tapes?

quote:

Originally posted by 214th_Hitman:

quote:

Originally posted by gfitzpatrick:
I have watched HUD tapes from an F-16 where the speed gets down to 120-130kts while dogfighting MiG-29s, the Falcons seem to have no problem with getting the MiGs in their sights in slow fights, But Falcon drivers prefare the higher speed fights. The G force never got above 4G in the dogfights. Although in one high speed turn of 500kts the G force hit 7.2, I was suprise the MiG tried it on at that speed.

where can I find some of these tapes?

You may have already seen it. It's on patrick's site. It has Block 50 Falcons and GAF MiG-29s training DACT. One version of it had Welcome to the Jungle sound track. It ends with a clip of a MiG-29 crashing at an airshow for some reason.

I don't know if has been corrected but ....

...Russian engines have poor performance at slow speeds compared to the US engines. This is coming from one of my contacts that flew aircraft on both sides.

Most BFM encounters end up going slow. There is a thing call fuel and you better have enough to get back to base.

Heh...in addition to much shorter TBO compared to Western engines.