quote pilotasso:...
It costs 250 million dollars, you bet it has capabilites to match the price or else it would have long been shelved.


Umm sorry, but history tells a different story.
Theres these little matters of national pride and polotics, they sometimes play a far bigger part in procurement than mere value for money

quote:

Originally posted by Ivan-the-Taff:
quote pilotasso:...
It costs 250 million dollars, you bet it has capabilites to match the price or else it would have long been shelved.


Umm sorry, but history tells a different story.
Theres these little matters of national pride and polotics, they sometimes play a far bigger part in procurement than mere value for money

Could you give me comparable examples?
I think mere politics can so much strech decisions to a point they are desperatly enough to pay a quarter billion of dollas fo ONE plane and get away with it...

Have you not noticed the Cold War is over Ivan? If we were still in the Cold War then sure the F-22 would come into service no matter what the price but we have no REAL threat right now that can't even shoot down F-15s but we are still getting the new 250m dollar F-22s. So I agree with Pilotasso in saying that it better have the capabilities to match the price or else it would've been shelved. Especially with the new F-35 coming out.

Edited to give the right person credit

This message has been edited. Last edited by: destroyex,

quote:

Originally posted by robban75:


Just look at other news channels and compare. Fox News reports are generally trying to point out all that is good in the US and everything that is bad in the rest of the world. In other words, leading the US public to believe that the US is right, and the rest of the world is wrong. That's my view on it anyways.

Yup, and that's your view of it because you are a human being with your own thoughts and opinions, much like ANY person who operates or works for a news agency. There is no such thing as a news story that doesn't have a bias one way or the other. My thought on this is that people should examine a broad spectrum of media sources, including Fox news, and use their own brains to put everything together and figure out what is real.

quote:

You talk about propaganda like it is something that does not exist? Every country uses propaganda. And for a superpower like the US, propaganda is just as important as it was for the former USSR. Fox News(for example) certainly has its part in this, though it doesn't have to be about airplanes.

No, I guess you misunderstood what I meant. Of course propaganda exists, it does in EVERY country, including my own...and yours. Just how much of it is government sponsored, however, is debatable. What I meant is that some are too quick to label something as propaganda just because it doesn't happen to agree with their opinion. In the US, no matter which news channel it is, you'll always have the political ideologues on both sides of the fence insisting completely opposite things about the same news channel. Those on the right may say that channel is a tool of the "evil liberals", those one the left, on the other hand, insist that its just a right wing government propaganda channel. They're both seeing the same information, but they form completely different opinions, the paranoia comes out and they start blaming everything on the people that don't agree with them.

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Yes I've heard of it, but I haven't read about it in a long time. From what I've read it was replaced by the JTIDS/Link16.
A little overview on Sweden's usage of datalinks, not super serious, but still fun http://content.miw.com.sg/LifeStyle/Military/combataircraft_20040130_pg2.asp

JTIDS/Link16 (aka TADIL-J) is just the most recent version of the same, basic concept. It is my understanding that this is a downwardly compatible system that can still communnicate on a basic level with TADIL-A and TADIL-C systems

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Very true! But that doesn't mean we can't discuss it?

Nope, sure doesn't. But I think we should just stick to discussing facts that we know and stay away from calling something overrated, when its combat record says otherwise.

quote:

Originally posted by destroyex:
So I agree with Iguana in saying that it better have the capabilities to match the price or else it would've been shelved. Especially with the new F-35 coming out.

Actually, Pilotasso gets the credit for saying that. He does have a very good point though, and I am 100% in agreement.

destroyex, I think you missunderstood my post, I gave no opinion whatsover on the f22's value, I simply gave my opinion that its not to be taken for granted that any aircraft is always worth what the taxpayer forks out, as An up to date example, imo the osprey will definately not have a capability worth the cost when it comes (possibly if still) into service, but "other factors" may ultimately tip the balance.
Basically I'm picking up a small point here
I wont bother even giving my opinion of the f22, cos I really dont know **** about it

The Tornado F3 dose have a datalink of some sort

"In its usual air defence role, the F3 can receive real-time information through a datalink on approaching targets from patrolling Sentry early warning aircraft and attack nominated targets without having to use its own radar and give its position away to the enemy. Similarly, in the anti-radar role, F3s can pass information back to the Sentrys or ground-stations to pass on the location of an opponent's radar site for onward relay to other aircraft or ground forces."

Source RAF.mod.uk/tornadoF3

I was watching "Wings Of The Red Star" today. Actually I "tivo'd" it. Any ways, it was about the Foxbat. It obviously talked a bit about the Eagle, and its conception. What I was thinking about was the cost of the Eagle. Wouldn't the Eagle's price tag equal about what the Raptor's price tag is after about 20 years inflation? I would bet it is pretty close, the Eagle WAS VERY EXPENSIVE. My point is, it was well worth the money, and full of new tech, again well worth the money. It was well ahead of its time. What makes those of you who doubt the price tag of the Raptor, think it is any different? It to me, is eerily similar.

Good point BoCfuss. Its a lot like building a new computer, when the technology first becomes available, its expensive as hell.

Agreed, good point
Anyone know anything about the stealth coating on the raptor?,..is it working on the quarter wavelength disruptive-interference principal?
anything been said officially on it?

Ide say 1 of the biggest advantages of the US is its orgnisation. ide bet the Raptor has the best datalking system money can buy and i would also bet it is linked with other air assets so the leaders on the ground can tell exacly what is going on at any point in time.
They proably got some fancy GIS to orgnise it all.

Well a good way to find out is to fight a war with the F22 and Typhoon on the same side and see which one gains the most kills. And if there is a tie, they fight against one another.

quote:

Originally posted by PantherF15:
Well a good way to find out is to fight a war with the F22 and Typhoon on the same side and see which one gains the most kills. And if there is a tie, they fight against one another.

Well I think the typhoon and raptor would be able to own any plane coming from the countries that the US is fighting right now so basing it on which plane gets more kills wouldn't be good IMO since it would be mostly depend on which plane runs into the most enemy aircraft, so basically 90% of a test like that would be based on luck.

"Well I think the typhoon and raptor would be able to own any plane coming from the countries that the US is fighting right now so basing it on which plane gets more kills wouldn't be good IMO since it would be mostly depend on which plane runs into the most enemy aircraft, so basically 90% of a test like that would be based on luck"

True. Rather than kills, combat serviceability can give a good idea of an a/c. Kills will depend a lot on opportunity, enemy skill, a/c mission role etc.

Hey Alfa_Kilo, if you need to quote a person, you can click on the "reply with quote" icon in the lower right corner of the person's post. Makes it a little easier. Just a heads up.


In any war, you'd probably see the raptor fly more air to air sorties than the typhoon simply because the raptor has greater capabilities in air to air. So the number of kills would probably be lopsided. But what about air to ground? I know the raptor has jdam and probably some other classified stuff, but what is the typhoon's air to ground capability?

I wonder, if the F-22 is everything we are led to understand, would being an F-22 "Ace" actually mean anything..??

I read (don't remember where) that the typhoon in 2-seat config. will eventually replace the RAF Tornadoes. So it should be able to carry Skyshadow AShM, ALARM ARM, and assorted bombs etc.

In the F-22, large diameter payloads will have to be carried underwing, causing it to loose stealth.

In any war, you'd probably see the raptor fly more air to air sorties than the typhoon simply because the raptor has greater capabilities in air to air. So the number of kills would probably be lopsided. But what about air to ground? I know the raptor has jdam and probably some other classified stuff, but what is the typhoon's air to ground capability?[/QUOTE]

Well I didnt specify air or ground kills.
I know for a fact that the Typhoon is intended to be good at everything. That said, being good at air needs to be fast stealthy and agile. Ground means stealth to a certain extent, but rugged and "heavy".
In short it's two opposites and requirements are : be good at both.
The Raptor is soley for Anti Air with a minor ground ability. So no doubt F22 will be better against a Typhoon.

So Whiz is right. It will be lopsided. But I suppose being an ace in a Typhoon will mean much more. It will mean more skill would be needed.

Ok, my first post here, In fact, i joined entirely to reply to this thread.

Let's all admit that we are all biased. The main point i would like to make here is about technology. Right now, it is completely uncertain which plane is dominant, as no PHYSICAL tests have been done with one versus the other.

I had the honour of seeing the Typhoon at Biggin Hill (england) this year, and i was absolutely blown away by it's grace, power, and manauverability. Having said that, pride in our own countries' planes isn't going to answer this question.

Having had a few friends in the RAF I was surprised to see the data for just how many mock engagements in live tests were won against american F-16's with our ageing and slightly 'bombtruck'esque fighters. This is due to the fact that a lot of the equation is weapons systems and manpower.

Primarily however it is weapons systems. The Typhoon will have a superior missile system, but by all accounts, and if i am totally unpatriotic for a moment, and brutally honest, the F-22 is obviously a more advanced plane. One doesn't really need to look that far to see why, it has Tv, low radar profile, etc... But, on the other hand, the eurofighter is regarded by every pilot that has ever flown it as the perfect integration of fly by wire controls and superb turn rates.

The meteor missile gives the typhoon an advantage which for the time being closes the gap somewhat on the raptor, but if we are being honest, plane versus plane, the raptor is simply a more refined, more advanced system. Much like the mustang was better than the spitfire, it is really due to the passion and skill with which our brave pilots handle their aircraft, and these two comparably well matched planes will never be flown against each other anyway.

We are allies, and i know it's a national pride issue, lets both take pride in what each aircraft both now and historically have achieved and fly together to future engagements with the knowledge of full dominance over any future adversary : )

Max

"The meteor missile gives the typhoon an advantage which for the time being closes the gap somewhat on the raptor,"

Actually, AIM-120C ERAAMs or a possible classified equivilent, when launched from the Raptor, are expected to be capable of downing aircraft over 100nm away. I don't want to go into too much detail into which I think is a better aircraft, because I will never stop, suffice to say that I have participated in many threads where it has come down to claims that low-frequency radar systems, collaborative systems, turbulance detection (read: Jindalee Over-the-Horizon project), special radars on the SU-35BM etc.etc. can perhaps detect the Raptor. The accuracy of these claims may be as questionable as the systems themselves- the general concensus in the end was that the AN/APG-77s ability to overload enemy sensors and send out jamming bursts would make actually locking the Raptor extremely difficult, even if it was detected by one of the afforementioned "magic radars", and then the high frequency seekers of the missiles themselves would have a very difficult time tracking the Raptor in the terminal phases.

Aside from the obvious difficulty of shooting the F/A-22 out of the sky or even detecting its presence in the first place, I feel that its ability to travel faster WITHOUT its afterburners on than the Eurofighter can WITH its afterburners on is something which warrants careful consideration- the Raptor can supercruise at Mach 1.78, according to recent test data.

I also think the Radar of the F/A-22 (AN/APG-77), CIP (central integrated processor) and the way the whole thing is linked together and information is presented to the pilot (clear symbology, air threats automatically appearing on the HUD with the autopilot ability of matching the airspeed and following that target etc.) and the ability of multiple air targets at various ranges and altitudes to be detected, identified, tracked and engaged pretty much instantaneously (while some of the T/R units of the radar perform jamming functions), are also notable achievements of the Raptor.

In the air to ground role, the ability of the (RAF) Eurofighter to simultaneously carry 18 Brimstone anti-tank missiles, 4 AMRAAMs and 2 Sidewinders, on a CAS mission, for example, certainly makes it a lethal platform. Then again, if SDBs work "as planned", the Raptor could be dealing some damage on the ground with its 8 internally stored-SDBs.

Well, I said I wouldn't go into too much detail-and I wont... I usually hang out on the Ravenshield forums to stop myself getting into such "heated" discussions.

sorry if the above didn't read too well, I need to sleep