quote:

Originally posted by MysticPhoenixDW:

quote:

Originally posted by alias-hw:
In fact, I invite you to do a search (if you really want to spent the time needed to read my long posts) to find a spot where I say even ONCE that it’s a lousy game, or that I don’t think it’s worth the money.

It wasn't meant to offend you. I just was surprised about such a positive comment, maybe in addition I mixed thins up a little bit.

Oh, I was never offended, I just writing a ‘no, and see this is why’ kind of thing.

As to my optimism about the editor, it’s probably because I’m so surprised by it. I just stated that I’m not that thrilled with the ‘support’ so in that light I fully expected the map editor to be really nothing more than a token stool. In fact, I already firmly had the words ‘be careful what you wish for, you just might get it’ in my head.

But then, we get this editor. Damn, I nearly fell out of my seat. Wow, that’s amazing. Where are all those incompetent programmers some people complain about? Who made this extremely well designed tool? Hot damn.

And now for something different. I’m in the process of reading the manual, well the practical guide and I’m impressed. I don’t mean the following as some dig, but seriously, did someone else than a Nival employee write that?

If I look at some of the spelling mistakes that made it into game, and then look at the quality and proper English (as far as I can see) in the manual, I am once again amazed by the quality that was delivered.

H.W.

quote:

Originally posted by Sorceresss:


I somewhat share your optimism, dear HW...but I remain very frustrated that certain very basic operations have become "tedious" to execute.

I consider myself an expert map-editor at HM&M. I have spent over 1000 solid hours editing maps for H2, H3 & H4. If you don't believe me, I'll email you one of my humongous H3 maps.

In the past editors, for example, placing and editing a town was very easy. You chose one in the menu and put it on the map, where you could immediately edit its properties, such as player-colour.

Since Wednesday, I have started 6 maps, and I have never succeeded to place starting towns in a 100% correct manner. That very basic process is much more complicated than in previous editors. And when I tested the maps, all sorts of odd things happened :

My original town names were not kept, some towns were missing, some had incomplete features (such as pre-built structures), and some towns were not exactly where I had positioned them, etc.

I recognize that I still am very clumsy in the use of the H5 editor...but my crucial point, here, is that very basic operations have become a "tedious" chore.

One poster stressed that there is no easy way to immediately click to select. For example, if I place a town (why does the cursor display an ugly red circle instead of the town's profile?!), I cannot immediately select it to edit its properties or to quickly delete it. Instead, I have to fool around with menus!

I admit that I am incompetent in the manipulation of the H5 editor...but why have they pushed into menus operations that used to be very easily and rapidly executed with point/click/drag/right-click mouse actions (without having to go into menus and sub-menus)?!!

It's too bad, HW, if you do not like my word, but I maintain that the H5 editor is very tedious...relative to previous editors.

And don't tell me that it's because of the 3D! Placing a town and immediately editing its properties has nothing to do with 3D coding.

I totally agree! It seems to me you have to be a programmer to use this editor! I personally feel the H-5 editor is the worst editor ever put out for the layman person. At least the H-4 editor was easy to use and Nival could have at least made the H-5 editor more like it.

BTW, is this version of the editor the beta version? Is the so-called 6 seperate file editor manual the 'full' manual or just a part of it?
And in the 'Cheat Code' manual, why is it so vague? And where are all the cheat codes, because surely this dab they list isn't the only cheat codes the game has?

Here's a list of some things I'm missing:

- creature editor (like: changing: stats/abilities/model)
- hero editor (same as above)
- skill editor
- spell editor

(Warcraft-3-Worldedit has these functions)

quote:

Originally posted by MaturanTheRed:
Here's a list of some things I'm missing:

- creature editor (like: changing: stats/abilities/model)
- hero editor (same as above)
- skill editor
- spell editor

(Warcraft-3-Worldedit has these functions)

Wouldn't this be kinda tough to implement? I mean, the creation of the map itself would have to include the physical changes you're implementing too. And then they'd have to only be in effect for that particular map. So after you quit that map and went to another one, the stats/spells/etc would go back to normal. This would make the file-size on maps STAGGERING! Or are you NOT talking about the map editor but a H5 Mod-maker. Sounds more like it to me.

quote:

Originally posted by Sorceresss:
It is too bad, Mr Genie, that you do not address the very basic problem that I have presented (see the quote in Queen Ladybug's post above).

*grin* That would be because I hadn't read every post in this thread yet. :O)

Overall, the editor seems to work pretty well. But the interface is still a bit difficult to navigate and I also dislike the fact that they didn't convert their previously made maps into .h5m format. But just like any editor, there's a learning curve involved. I've played around with it but I'm not a very experienced map-maker. I've made a few here and there for H2, H3 & H4 but I'd lose interest by the time it came around to balancing them. My biggest problem is with scripts. It'd take me a while to get used to using them I'm afraid.

I'd been spending a bit of my free time these last couple of days attempting to convert all the old Nival maps into .h5m format to no avail so far. Everyone seems to make it sound so simple to do...but these old blue fingers are fumbling the process I'm afraid. I've petitioned Nival to do the job for us, but I have no idea when I'll hear from them or IF I'll hear from them. I've had next to no personal contact with Nival guys, I'd been dealing with Ubi guys...so we'll see how that goes. But in the meantime...if anybody has the time (and the skill) to convert the pre-existing ones, I'd be happy to post them so people can download them and edit them to their hearts' content.

quote:

Originally posted by C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s:
I've petitioned Nival to do the job for us, but I have no idea when I'll hear from them or IF I'll hear from them. I've had next to no personal contact with Nival guys, I'd been dealing with Ubi guys...so we'll see how that goes.

Maybe you can enlist Jolly Joker's help there.

I think cuck will handel this!

quote:

Originally posted by MaturanTheRed:
Here's a list of some things I'm missing:

- creature editor (like: changing: stats/abilities/model)
- hero editor (same as above)
- skill editor
- spell editor

(Warcraft-3-Worldedit has these functions)

Would be nice, but very difficult, and it's not like NWC had these functions.

It would offer damn near unlimited replayability, but it would be difficult.

quote:

Originally posted by znork:
I think cuck will handel this!

He just said himself he has had next to no personal contact with Nival. How exactly do you think he's going to "handle this" if they don't acknowledge him?

JJ on the other hand has more interaction with them so he might be able to get this fixed quicker. No offence Chuck.

The Editor seems featureful but it has problems; I'll give some specifics first, then generalities. I very much look forward to anyone submitting a map made from this editor. I'm sure I won't be the first :-)

I. Specifics

1. False positive Saves. I'm not sure of all the conditions to cause a save to fail, but when it does, it's silent; you don't know that you didn't save the game. I would prefer an "unable to save" message. There would be two types: "map errors, save failed" and "unable to open target file". The former occurs when, for example, a city does not have a "specialization"; one of the innoucuous looking warnings like "hero has no name". This error appears to prevent saves. The latter occurs if the Game itself is open; it's linked to the map files and prevents their being overwritten. I'm not sure at all of the combinations that prevent saves, but I've ended up exitting the game completely before loading the editor and modifying the map (which is very tedious when playtesting, especially when everything breaks), and also giving every city a "specialization". I could be wrong about this; one of my problems was using the same scenario name in the backup file, and not being able to distinguish them in the Custom Scenario selection screen (now I rename with each save, e.g YoofIIIa and YoofIIIb).

2. The PWL. The "please wait, loading" screen is alleged to be customizable (in the "practical" manual). The first issue is that the format appears to be proprietary (TGA?); perhaps the editor could include a tool for converting standard open formats (JPG, or at least MS's BMP) into their TGA. The second is that after creating a TGA from a screenshot from inside the editor itself, and creating a PWL object and browsing to the tga file in the map directory where I had copied it, the file did not open into the "source" field (and again, this was silent, it just leaves the field blank). I tried typing the file name into the field; perhaps the full file spec would work, I got tired of trying.

3. The underground. Has anyone made a map with an underground level yet? I made an entrance/exit pair, put them in the same group, and placed them at similar coordinates on their levels, but I am not able to step onto the entrance in playtesting, even though the assessibility overlay shows a green entrance on open ground and the "check map" gives no errors regarding it. I can't see the underground reasonably, even though I redefined it's lighting to be above-ground type, and even created some luminescent objects. I haven't been able to lower the altitude of the area and don't currently have any clue why.

II. Generalities

The previous editors, and the current game itself, are highly usable. Lots of people had fun making lots of maps. This editor does not seem to have been made by the same people that made the game. It's authors appear to have learned about object hierarchies and databases from MS Visual C++, and nowhere else. Is this actually the editor that was used to produce the maps in the game? Or did they outsource a subset of the specs? Plainly there was no usability testing at all.

One might argue that the editor is not a product, just a freebie for a few avid fans; however, when programmers build tools to aid their work, as they go along, you get a much better product than this. I don't believe this was the editor the developers used.

I'll keep trying. I look forward to some tips about coping with the undergound, and I really look forward to someone uploading a user-contributed map. We'll all stop complaining about the editor when someone uses it to build a cool scenario.

Yoof

quote:

Originally posted by AdumbroDeus:

quote:

Originally posted by MaturanTheRed:
Here's a list of some things I'm missing:

- creature editor (like: changing: stats/abilities/model)
- hero editor (same as above)
- skill editor
- spell editor

(Warcraft-3-Worldedit has these functions)

Would be nice, but very difficult, and it's not like NWC had these functions.

It would offer damn near unlimited replayability, but it would be difficult.

How can you say that this would be very difficult? Did you ever make something like that? Well, anyways I can repeat myself - Blizzard did it VERY good so it can't be impossible... but maybe they just have better programmers.

Edit: Yes, NWC didn't offer these functions, but that doesn't mean that Nival can't TRY to do it better.

quote:

Originally posted by Sorceresss:


The editor is too complicated...and I'm not refering here to positive complexity.

This is the fifth time you say something similar in five different topics, in exactly ten minutes time.

Funny, I remember a time where I was complaining about the missing map editor and you kept posting replies with rolling eyes about me mentioning the editor, again. And here you seem to go for the record of how often you can mention it in ten minutes.

If you don’t mind, could you explain something to me?
How come less than a week ago you were one of the, if not THE biggest Ubi/Nival supporters on this forum, even going as far as to call YOURSELF, (I quote) a Nival b***h.

And now all of a sudden you have (according to you own words) joined the lines of the Nival haters.

For just one thing you turn from a lover to a hater? Is all of a sudden the game you loved so much a week ago **** now? Or don’t the Nival people you once loved deserve some credit for that at least?

Aren’t you the one that said that she played the War of the Worlds maps two months straight? Alright, so the editor is too complex for you, but others will manage to make maps; some already have. So, if you can’t make maps yourself, isn’t the game created by Nival still the same game you love, and won’t you be able to use it to play maps created by others?

Don’t you have any middle ground? You go from loving to hating for one single thing. Don’t you have a ‘I’m disappointed, but still like the game? Don’t you have a ‘alright, Nival messed up with this one, but I’m sure they will get it right with the enhanced editor we get when the expansion comes out.'

Alright, so you can’t make maps, but aren’t you at least glad that now there is a map editor so that new maps CAN be made in the first place?


Oh, and just in case you go deleting your messages, again, here are the other four times you mentioned the map editor.

quote:

You're not silly at all.

It's the editor that is silly.

Too much cheap Vodka.

quote:

What a crappy, complex & tedious editor !

quote:

I feel special, all right :

specially ****ed by that too complicated editor.

quote:

You people are naive & ****y.

That map editor is way too complicated !

H.W.
Um, by the way, just when is someone a spammer? Would posting 12 messages in 10 minutes suffice? I’m asking since you have pointed out several times that people were spamming, so I guess you can tell me if 12 messages in 10 minutes is spamming.

I`ve ben wondering that myself, it`s almost as if it isn`t her but someone else using her account.
As mood swings go this one seems very strange and has me quite confused.

quote:

Originally posted by Euphistopheles:
3. The underground. Has anyone made a map with an underground level yet? I made an entrance/exit pair, put them in the same group, and placed them at similar coordinates on their levels, but I am not able to step onto the entrance in playtesting, even though the assessibility overlay shows a green entrance on open ground and the "check map" gives no errors regarding it. I can't see the underground reasonably, even though I redefined it's lighting to be above-ground type, and even created some luminescent objects. I haven't been able to lower the altitude of the area and don't currently have any clue why.

Unfortunately, this is the only one I may have an answer for you on.

For some reason, the only way to clear out the underground is to use the Lower tool and specifically have it on x3. None of the other sizes (x1, x5, x7, or Rect.) work with this.

Hope this helped you out. If not, then I have no idea what else could be wrong.

So far, albeit a few exceptions, it seems the ones not happy about the editor are either unexperienced with that kind of program or are "cheaters" who wanted to modify the original scenario maps which are obviously not made to be edited.

Seems to me Nival did a good job if the majority of experts in map editing are actually liking it and giving the props.

quote:

Originally posted by BTOG46:
I`ve ben wondering that myself, it`s almost as if it isn`t her but someone else using her account.
As mood swings go this one seems very strange and has me quite confused.

Perhaps that's why she deletes many of her posts after a day or so?
Ah well, it doesn't really matter, I guess.

My only complaints about the editor for the time being are about the "lag", which goes with the manual placement of landskape objects, such as mountains. It makes the overall "creative" process a bit irritating (becouse it's slower that way). With the right kind of music from winamp however, that's curable. Everything else seems fine though. Surprisingly...

i like how they brought back the fill feature, but dont like how it isnt auto based on terrain. i als dont like the "lag" but i guess i can get used 2 that

quote:

Originally posted by MaturanTheRed:

quote:

Originally posted by AdumbroDeus:

quote:

Originally posted by MaturanTheRed:
Here's a list of some things I'm missing:

- creature editor (like: changing: stats/abilities/model)
- hero editor (same as above)
- skill editor
- spell editor

(Warcraft-3-Worldedit has these functions)

Would be nice, but very difficult, and it's not like NWC had these functions.

It would offer damn near unlimited replayability, but it would be difficult.

How can you say that this would be very difficult? Did you ever make something like that? Well, anyways I can repeat myself - Blizzard did it VERY good so it can't be impossible... but maybe they just have better programmers.

Edit: Yes, NWC didn't offer these functions, but that doesn't mean that Nival can't TRY to do it better.

Yeah, it would be difficult, I am an information tech major, I KNOW how difficult it is to convert complex in-house editors into consumer friendly versions, especially for games.

Yeah, blizzard did a damn good job, but, Blizzard is Blizzard and I don't know how they do it, but pretty much everything they do turns out incredible. I consider it a possiblity that they built the house editor with ease of conversion in mind because they are used to making games with a heavy level of user content.

My point is, they're not obliged to offer these function, sure it'd be nice, but they're new to this series, probably new to games with user-content period. Hell, I'm surprised they managed a decent map editor that's almost as effective as the Heroes 3 editor, with a much more complex gaming engine to work with.

Give em time with the series, and we'll probably see mod editors and the like, but right now, don't expect such bells and whistles, they're just that, bells and whistles.

KingImp, thanks for your (actually!) helpful reply! Just a few guys like you makes threads like these worthwhile. So yes, using the 3x3 tool tip for "lower" works underground. A funny bug; my intuition is that generalizing from a working dimension of 3 should be easy (usually the problems are with the min and max dimensions, e.g. 1 and 7).

Meanwhile I tested my game save problems with the Game and the Editor open at the same time (one or the other minimized). When the Game is open, saves fail (silently), presumably because the file is "open" to the Game (that is, the file descriptor is assigned with privledge to the game, unnecessarily when no one is actually playing a map, but it's a common design flaw). You can save to a seperate file, but the game will not see that because it loads the content of the directory at boot time, not when you go to the "Custom" menu (which is when I would load the directory listing). The design strategy is to load as much as possible when the app starts, and swap as little as possible later (and let the OS do it for you when needed). It delays startup and saves time later (until you page to disk). It's lazy, but it cuts development time hugely to do it that way. The most nimble applications free and allocate resources in small amounts all the time, as needed, but it takes a good design to do that without leaking or otherwise messing up.

The upshot of this is that you have to exit the game for each change in the editor, before you save; which slows down map development. You can, however, keep the editor up (although it loads quicker, so it doesn't matter as much).

The good news is that already I'm starting to think more about my design for the map, than about the problems with mechanics. I got the undergound thing I needed in minutes with KingImp's advice, and that was only my second session :-) I still misdoubt that this is the editor the developers used, but I"m confident that we can make interesting maps (with enough persistence) although I fear Ubi may be keeping to much proprietary (e.g. the TGA format for PWL).

I personally believe that user-contributed maps are the real soul of Heroes, and the enthusiastic fan base for it is too important a resource to waste; but OTOH I don't know from marketing :-)

I really look forward to the first user contributed map. I'll be watching this thread for more tips (although we may move to a more generic topic, e.g. "maps and map editing", which so far has few replies).

Thanks all,
Yoof