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Forums Beyond Good and Evil Beyond Good and Evil General Discussion I want a game; not a franchise.|
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There's a problem in the entertainment media industry these days. It's as much a problem in games as it is in films, as in anything. The problem is that companies work to develop franchises, rather than developing a good game.
I don't want franchises. Eventually, there comes a time when a game just needs to stop. Tomb Raider is a fine example of what I'm talking about. Originally, it was a great game; it devolved into a boring and horrendous franchise. It needs desperately to end. Core and Eidos have milked the idea to death. They've stopped being creative, and have run themselves into an awful rut. And this happens with a great many games. It's healthy and good for game designers to move past a thing, to delve into new and fresh ideas, to exercise their creativity once more, rather than to keep beating the corpse of a spent idea. But how does this relate to Beyond Good & Evil? Before the game's release, Ubi referred to it as a new franchise, and never as a singular game. And the game reflects this. I think it's safe to say that the game ends on a cliff-hanger. There are a great many unresolved plot points and questions. There are too many "Why?!"'s after the game's conclusion. Clearly, a sequel was intended. But will we see a sequel? If so, it would be a noble gamble. Despite being an excellent piece of software, we all know that the game has not performed well in the market. Thus, there may very well NOT be a sequel. And where would that leave us, the game's faithful following, those of us you really want answers to those questions the game leaves us with? Out of luck, that's where. To be honest, I love Beyond Good & Evil, but the game did not provide me with a satisfying game experience. Why? Because it's not finished. I need an ending, and the ending that the game provides is no ending at all. I need a Part II that wraps up these loose-ends. The ending of this game frustrates me more than it rewards me for finishing it. And why did they end the game this way? Because they were developing it with the intention of turning it into a franchise! Rather than focusing on the game at hand, and turning it into the most satisfying piece of software that they could manage, they had only a part of their thought on it. The other part of their thought would have to have been on what would come after it. BG&E, at that time being an unproven contender in the videogame world, was approached with a very stupid mindset. They assumed there would be a sequel. Well, I'm sure you've all heard the saying: When you assume, you make an *** out of U and ME. BG&E would have been much better served if it had ended properly, with answers. There is no need for cliff-hangers. There's always room for an extra story in a gameworld. Excellent examples of franchises that do this properly are Harry Potter, Star Wars and Indiana Jones. All of these are franchises, with ongoing stories, but each episode has a clear beginning and ending. Each film has it's own plot and provides a satisfactory ending to that plot, while remaining a part of an overarching story. This is the model that I would have preferred BG&E to follow. Cliff-hangers are equivical to cheap-shots; they provide little more than a ruse to trick the player into buying the next game, if ever there will be one. Instead, I'd rather they created a wholly satifying experience and then I would feel compelled to purchase the follow-up out of the sheer quality of the first, and not because I've been tricked into it in order to finish the story from the first entry. The .hack games are a fine example of this sort of crap, and I refuse to play them because of it. It's especially frustrating in the case of BG&E, a game that desperately needs a sequel, but may not get one. I really have a lot of respect for Capcom at the moment. Capcom is a company notorious to cranking out sequels, creating franchises and then running them into the ground over the course of two decades. Just look what they've done to Mega Man, and they show no sign to letting up. But why do I respect them at present? Onimusha. It's a very successful series of games, and they're ending the series-proper with just three games. For once, they know when to stop. I think it's a good judgement call to end a series while it's still good, and to leave the gamers with fond memories of it. I also think it would be prudent for developers to create games with solid endings, and to lay off the cliff-hangers. Do you hear me, Ancel? Beyond Good & Evil is a great game. I hope that there is a sequel; I really do. But if the game had a good ending, then I wouldn't need a sequel. If there were one, I'd certainly be thrilled, and if there weren't, I would always remember Beyond Good & Evil as a fantastic episode in my gaming history. As it stands, if there isn't a sequel, I'll probably never return to this game. After all, why begin a story that you can never finish? And if they do manage to take BG&E into the realm of sequels, I also hope that they have the good sense to stop at some point. Two or three games total would be sufficient. By then, I think it would be best for the creators to tackle a new project and to refresh their creativity so that they don't begin to stagnate their games. I just want a good game. I don't want a franchise. One good game is worth far more to the people who play games, than a five-game franchise that never quite delivers as that one game should. Beyond Good & Evil could have been that one good game, but just doesn't deliver in the end. And that's a true shame. As sequels go, let's all hope for an announcement of some sort at this year's E3. And if there is, then I hope they wrap the ending up in a nice, tight, little bow this time. I don't think they'll need another cliff-hanger get us to buy a third game. [This message was edited by theturninggate on Tue March 23 2004 at 09:14 PM.] [This message was edited by bitebug2003 on Thu March 25 2004 at 04:04 PM.] |
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No, your wrong.
BG&E stands alone as a fine game. The bit at the end was the start of a *new* story, it was hardly the continueation of the one you had just played. No, even without that ending BG&E needs a sequal. It needs a sequal because its a fresh original game, with the potential not even nearly reached yet. (ask for a list if you want, there was lots in the engine not used ^_^) And even if it was a game designed to be in two parts THERE IS NOTHING wrong with that. All the Tomb Raider's were designed seperately, and not planed as a franchise, so your comparison with that is wrong. Games designed to be in two parts can be superb. Ever played Golden Sun? It was effectively 1 game split in two. But each part was huuuuuugee, and the story line was deep enough and complex enough to last two games. The 2nd game built on the first in an amazing way and didnt just continue the storyline, but completely turned it on its head. If ever there was a case of back-to-back game makeing, it was GS  No, theres nothing wrong in principle with franchises as long as companys respect, rather then milking them. Only release new parts when theres enough new ideas. Like Nintendo typicaly has 4 years between mario or Zelda games. Zelda Ocarina of Time was only the masterpiece it was because the gameplay had been built up slowly and refined over many years. Zelda: The Wind Waker, by comparison needed another years worth of development to have been as good. Some of the best games ever made are from franchise's. Personaly, id love to be playing BG&E5 or 6. As long as its in at least a decade's time  |
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Global Moderator |
Same goes for Banjo-Kazooie..
Banjo-Tooie continued where Banjo-Kazooie left off. -----  |
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You know I think you are right about building a game with cliff hangers. I would much rather buy a game with a whole story than two games each with half a story. I guess thats why I tolerate the 007 movies, each one ends with the situation being resolved. The closest thing to a clif hanger would be the "James Bond will return" in the credits.
The Final Fantasy games are great examples of complete story telling, in 12 games there has only been one sequel. I've noticed a lot of companies just throwing in an implied sequel when one isnt needed (see: Freedom Fighters). Some games just end perfectly but it seems to me like the writers get pressured by the "higher-ups" to put a cliff hanger in the script. I hate having cliffhangers anyway. If I resolve the situation I want to feel like I accomplished something, not "Great job, oh by the way its not over". Thats just lazy. They need to learn how to end the stories and move on. |
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Global Moderator |
So are you saying you were disappointed with BG&E and the way it ended?
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No I liked the ending, I just didnt like the Pey'j scene at the end, though it has spawned some interesting debates I dont think that it was needed.
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Indeed, the Pey'j scene is a very cheap and nasty tactic, but I have little doubt of it's effectiveness. For just ten extra seconds of animation, Ubi could potentially sell thousands of extra copies of a sequel (That is, if they actually make one). While there are plenty of other questions that haven't been answered, the "What's going to happen to Pey'j?!" question is probably going to be a main selling point for many customers. (Again, if they even make a sequel)
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twDarkflame, I'm not wrong in my discussion of Tomb Raider. I'll call into point Tomb Raider: The Last Revelation, which ends on a cliff-hanger, resolved in the following game, Tomb Raider: Chronicles. And then comes Angel Of Darkness, which was intended to be the first in a three-part series of next-gen Tomb Raider titles. Core messed it up so badly, though, that it's been passed off to Crystal Dynamics; I haven't heard what they mean to do with it yet. The fact of the matter is that Core and Eidos cranked out a Tomb Raider game on a yearly basis for five years, barely pushing the franchise forward until finally, a game that had begun as being revolutionary and really pushed forward the genre of 3rd Person Action/Adventure gaming, actually fell behind. It's a fine example of milking a franchise until it drops, and I'd hate to see this sort of crap happen to a game like Beyond Good & Evil, or any other decent game.
Truly, it's better to go out when you're on top, than to carry on so long that you lose your luster. I'm not saying that there is any problem with a two-part game, but I'm wondering if Ubi was counting their chickens before they hatched. If there's going to be a second game, then the ending is just fine. If not, then it's a problem. My point is that it's fine to intend a sequel, but the first game shouldn't end with any IF's. Cliff-hangers are a cop-out of good storytelling. The game needs more closure. I love the game. I adore it. It's one of the best I've played in ages. But in the end, I had conflicting feelings. First was a feeling of incredible satisfaction or having made it through a truly compelling and well-realized game. Then there was the incredible disappointment of such a cheesebrain ending that caused more problems than it solved. Furthermore, while the game contained some excellent gameplay elements and ideas, from all I'd read about it leading up to its release, I was expecting the story to be a little more complex. The telling was pretty cut-and-dry, and then the end spins off into some other place completely. I haven't played Golden Sun. Jak and Daxter is much the same, though. The first game sets some things up that can't be fully understood until the end of the second game, but it's done in such a way that the two games exist each on their own. I only wish that Beyond Good & Evil had been more self-contained, especially given the doubtful nature of its future. I've got my fingers crossed that Ubi will say something about it at E3 this year. I think that BG&E is much more deserving and in need of a sequel than Prince Of Persia, for which a sequel has already been confirmed. And nor did PoP perform as well as Ubi had expected, yet they've already committed to a second effort. |
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Regarding Final Fantasy. This is one example of a game that is milked to death. It will eventually fail.
Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles is a contender for a Non Final Fantasy game marketed as Final Fantasy. It doesn't play like FF, it has certain elements of FF, but the story is no where as deep as the PS2 counterparts. The battles are action based and not turned based - which is NOT Final Fantasy. At least Ubisoft produce original games, and don't spurn out endless sequels year upon year. Thats why Rayman is still popular, because there have only been 3 since the original was launched in the mid 90's. BG&E 2 will come I reckon. maybe not as soon as people/I want, but it's highly unlikely they will leave the ending unresolved. ----- |
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I'm inclined to agree with you on that point, bug. I've played every Final Fantasy game out there and lately I've just been disappointed. I'm not in the least bit interested in Crystal Chronicles, which is little more than a separate product they slapped the FF name on to increase sales. As for Final Fantasy XI, I'm again disinterested. They didn't need to make an MMORPG out of it, and even if they wanted to do that, they shouldn't have numbered it as an entry in the proper series. Final Fantasy X was alright, but didn't impress me as much as it did the review sites. And lastly, Final Fantasy X-2 is little more than an exercise in extreme tedium. Playing this game is a chore.
I've much more interest in Square's more original titles, such as Vagrant Story. Now that was a masterpiece. I wish they'd stop beating the dead horse and make more interesting titles like that. |
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quote: No, the comparison is flawed. They wanted to kill Lara off! They WANTED the brand to end there. It was publisher presure that brought it back. (along with getting a new team involved) It wasnt designed as a cliffhanger. And it certainly wasnt designed to be a two-part game. Heck, the guy that made Tomb Raider left after the FIRST game. Tomb Raider is milking a franchise that never even should have been a franchise. Beyond Good and Evil is a game, like Golden Sun, that deserves a sequal because it extends and improves on the gameplay while adding depth to the storylines. It is nothing at all like Tomb Radier, where even its creator only wanted it to be one game! quote: What on earth makes you think BG&E is anywhere near the top? How do you know it cant become the next Zelda? Each game adding and improving on the last? Surely its worth the risk? Theres nothing wrong with franchise's at all as long as its respected and releases arnt rushed for quick cash. quote: No, as creators they were perfectly entitled to design a game as they see fit. They fully intended to make a sequal, but if that never happens its not their fault. Exactly the same way Farscape's 4th season ended on a cliff-hanger. The creators were told they had a garentied 5th series...which was cancled by Sci-Fi Channel by a loop-hole in the contract. The Farscape fans dont ***** about the ending, no, they work hard and have managed to save the series from being scraped. (www.savefarscape.com) Instead of *****ing about how Ubisoft ended the game, we should be campagning to make sure the sequal happens. quote: But BG&E exists fine on its own two. one storyline is very clearly, totaly finnished. Theres just a few other elements yet to be explained. And seeing as they fully intended a second game, then i dont see how you can justify critising them. Golden Sun is an RPG on the GBA, one of the best RPG's of the last decade in fact. (on any format) The story is completely split down the middle....events in the second game tie in very closely with the first game. (dispite playing different charecters) I wont go into details about how it works because someone reading this might play it someday. Lets just say the second game really turns the first one on its head. It resolves all the plot threads from the first, but certainly not in "part 2" kinda way. quote: I think its perfectly self contained. quote: POP did sale a bit better then BG&E, and it is a much easier game to make a sequal too. As far as deserving goes, then i would say it was equal. Prince of Perisa gameplay wasnt as diverse as BG&E by a long way, but IMO the story was much better told and the ending was wonderfull. If they can make the next game have an equaly well told story then i am sure to get it. Im sure ubisoft will do every effort possible to get BG&E2 made. But at the moment, it makes more sense for them to do POP2 and a few Spliter Cell games. |
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"I'm not in the least bit interested in Crystal Chronicles, which is little more than a separate product they slapped the FF name on to increase sales."
Thats certainly true, but its still a very good game. Even in single player. Boss battles are just brillent. |
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Global Moderator |
Also remember that Prince of Persia is an old franchise which has already established a fan base.
Judging by the quality of BG&E it's not just a game that was thrown together. Look how cleverly they incorporated the websites into the game. There is more to the Beyond Good & Evil Franchise then you think. Hopefully that would be enough to warrant a continuation in the Hyllian storyline. ----- |
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Ah. But there are good franchises as well. Look at Rainbow Six for example. Every game was/is a good game, not a simple sequel to popular piece of software. Then there are Warcraft series from Blizzard, from War1 to the newest Frozen Throne, they had plot and they were good and profitable games. Whole "franchise" idea doesn't bug me at all if it's taken care of. I mean, if they make every game/product under that franchise a good game with a lot of compassion in it, then I'll put green light to them. There are, yes I know a humongous pieces of crap out there, but there are some franchises that are good, that evolve each time a new product is made etc. If they do things right, there is nothing to worry about.
Expect me when you see me. |
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There is nothing wrong with developing a piece of entertainment with the plan at the get-go being to have multiple parts. The problem is when the plan is to leave it open-ended for an as-yet unwritten sequel. I would prefer to see a sequence of several games where the plan was established before the release of the first game, and have them follow that plan. You can get a much more involving storyline and deeper meanings this way than you can otherwise.
An example of this (non-video game, but still fits the description) is Babylon 5. It was planned from the get-go to be a 5 season TV series, with a set story that would be told during those 5 years. For the most part, they stuck to the original plan and the result is a masterpiece in television. Alledgedly, BG&E was announced at last year's E3 as a trilogy. This means that they had a set multi-game plan that they wanted to implement. I see nothing wrong with that, as long as they stick to the plan. We already have the makings of the best story in the history of video games. If they follow through and finish the story (which I suspect/hope is already written), then it will be awesome. Let's just say that any BG&E sequel is an automatic "must buy" for me. It would have been without the Pey'J infection scene at the end, as there are lots of unanswered questions anyway. I have come to care about Jade and what happens to her more than any other video game character. Intelligent responses welcome, flames will be met with marshmallows. |
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quote: I so agree with that statement. Not many VG characters had such an affect on me as Jade did. ----- |
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quote: Yes, B5 was a novel for TV, with that opinion I must agree. But as you already know, they had difficulties throughout the entire series. They didn't knew would there be a fifth season or not (well, there was) so they were on the "risk" line and made SiL as an emergency b-plan. If I have figured this correctly then the story with BG&E is this: it didn't sold too well once it was released, but it has continued to sell after pretty well for a software product. So this means that most of us likes this game and will pretty surely buy a sequel if it will be made. Frankly, I don't believe that Ubi would just abandon a product like this, maybe it didn't sell millions, but it got good reviews etc. I don't know if this whole speculation is close to the truth or not, but this is the way I see it. And my logic says that there will be a sequel that will be marketed correctly. As always. Faith manages. quote: Indeed it had an great affect on me also. Facial animation was great (not too cartoonish, and not too "real" like in HL2 demos) and the voice acting. You could see when Jade was frightened, scary, serious, happy, surprised, sad etc. They did a great job. Expect me when you see me. |
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quote: Actualy a better example is 24 which each eppisode being 100% planed before filming even began on a series. With B5 they had a very rough plan for the 5 seasons, they just had a vague big story arc with numberious gaps. Episodes themselfs wernt planned more then a few advance for the most part (just like most other sci-fi's...they dont make the whole season up before filming) Its always a balance, you weigh the risks of getting cancled against the pay-off from a complex inter-relating storyline. Farscape had a big storyarc planned between seasons 4 and 5, but they got cancled after filming the last eppisode of 4. They now have to fit a whole seasons story into just a 4 hour miniseries. (which is self-finaced) I am skeptical they can pull it off without being just one big non-stop explanation. |
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quote: Yes, VERY true. Reminds me of something i read recently: quote: BG&Es world feels "real" without being realistic. |
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quote:Thanks, bitebug! quote: Agreed. All of this together made for great storytelling. I could really feel for Jade. Thinking back to my first time through the game, here are some things I noticed: The beginning provides a perfect introduction to her as a character. First off, she's doing yoga, then when the kids are in the DomZ Sarcophagii, she doesn't despair but determinadly fights them off. In the factory, when Jade is in the launch bay and sees Pey'J in the container being taken away, she is so distracted by not being able to get to him that at first she doesn't notice the DomZ robot forming itself behind her. Her first reaction upon seeing it is shock. At the conclusion of the rooftop chase, Jade just barely misses catching HH's hand. Despite being nothing more than simple CGI, I can see it in her eyes: she thinks she's about to die. HH catching her is one of the most memorable moments in any game. When she thinks Pey'J is dead, I was on the verge of tears, and I don't cry easily. I could feel how Jade's heart was basicly torn out, yet she went on. Of course, as a player I thought that Pey'J was still alive because the game instruction manual describes the interface for when you have 2 companions. (yes, I read the instruction manual before playing) But this didn't lessen the emotional impact I had for Jade at that moment. When she infiltrates the Great Crypt and sees General Kehck and the DomZ priest consulting, about how the DomZ wanted her specifically, I could imagine the wheels in her head turning. Why do they want me? she was thinking. I find her decision to not tell anyone what she heard to be somewhat odd, but that's a discussion for a different thread. Those are things I noticed my first time through the game. Since then there are other subtleties I've noticed: After Jade takes the picture of the DomZ in Black Isle, and the giant DomZ creature starts stirring, Jade senses that something is wrong well before Pey'J. I suspect the reason for this is that her connection with the power of Shauni made her more attuned to it. There is a certain level of fear in her when she fights the DomZ in the Factory right before Pey'J is captured that is not seen anywhere else in the game. Essentially, they (for lack of a better term) spooked her (observed directly when Pey'J pats her after they've won). Again, I think it is related to Shauni being in her. So yes, I care about Jade. I want to know what happens to her. I will be sorely dissappointed if no sequel is produced. Intelligent responses welcome, flames will be met with marshmallows. |
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Forums Beyond Good and Evil Beyond Good and Evil General Discussion I want a game; not a franchise.