in endwar, one of the most divisive issues is the question of what is to be done about the unit killing system.

on one side, you have the lige legitimate argument that unit killing helps the factor you play for, prevents people from having all legendary battalions, and adds penalties to risky decisions.

on the other you have the legitimate argument that it drive people from the game, it's abused by some, and it destroys the hard work of the casual gamers who may not play that often and cannot spend hours to re rank their killed unit.

since the first endwar was very much pro unit killing the knee jerk reaction by some has been to enforce anti unit killing measures.moving from one extreme to another

the solution should lie in trying to meet the needs of both camps.

one solution i've thought of is the POW system. instead of killing a unit, you get bonuses for capturing one alive. the unit is return at the end of the war, down a rank,(POW conditions), so both sides are somewhat happy.

I'd be happy with that, depending on the mechanics. How does the capture work, a bit like a forced evac using transports or helos?

Returning the unit at the end of the war? Surely you mean each individual battle because unless the unit was captured in the last week of the war the player would re train to the same level and loose it again several times.

Good idea, however the end of the war would be a bit to long to wait unless it was legendary. I mean we had some 80 turn long wars here, you might as well keep the unit killed.

I would rather have a system where the higher rank it is the longer it takes to get back, ex:

Regular: 2 days
Hardened: 3 days
Veteran: 4 days
Elite: 5 days
Legendary : 1 week

All units lose any "excess" experience (experience needed to get to the next rank)

I think that unit killing is fine the way it is. We don't need whiny kids complaining that they lost their legendary units. If you unit kill then you will likely get killed back. People who quit the moment they lose a unit are pretty stupid.

Now on the other hand, I think that units who are downed should get some more health. I want the decision to unit kill to be more demanding. If you try to unit kill a downed unit, then it should take longer. This gives the opposing commander more time to fight back to save his unit. I just think that it should take longer to kill a downed unit.

quote:

Originally posted by bloodredtyrant:
I think that unit killing is fine the way it is. We don't need whiny kids complaining that they lost their legendary units. If you unit kill then you will likely get killed back. People who quit the moment they lose a unit are pretty stupid.

Now on the other hand, I think that units who are downed should get some more health. I want the decision to unit kill to be more demanding. If you try to unit kill a downed unit, then it should take longer. This gives the opposing commander more time to fight back to save his unit. I just think that it should take longer to kill a downed unit.

You know what my problem is with unit killing...people will still try to kill my units even when I have all recruits from a fresh battalion, and it is nearly impossible for my measly recruits to take out the last 1/4th of a high ranking unit in time to exact revenge, and then whenever I do manage to get close to finishing it off half the time the guy will quickly ditch saving his ***...that's pretty ****ed up if you ask me.

After a weekend of double xp I now have secondaries to **** these cowards over but the problem remains, many unit killers never take the risk themselves, most in fact.

quote:

Originally posted by b_4721:
Returning the unit at the end of the war? Surely you mean each individual battle because unless the unit was captured in the last week of the war the player would re train to the same level and loose it again several times.

well, your POWS return only if they outrank a unit currently in your battalion. simple really.if your POW tanks are regular and you have all hardened tanks, fine, the POW unit doesn't return. if you have a recruit tank, it is replaced with the POW.

the long wait is to ensure the unit killers are satisfied that they are doing significant damage to the enemy faction, and the non unit killers are satisfied that their hard work and time invested will be returned to them. eventually.

quote:

Originally posted by superkrait:
I'd be happy with that, depending on the mechanics. How does the capture work, a bit like a forced evac using transports or helos?

i like the sound of forced evac, unless of course the commander of the down unit prefered to fight to the death or something.

I like the idea of more health/shield for downed units.

But what about the insta-kill EMP+WMD trick people like to pull just to **** the other person off?

quote:

Originally posted by Pal87:

quote:

Originally posted by b_4721:
Returning the unit at the end of the war? Surely you mean each individual battle because unless the unit was captured in the last week of the war the player would re train to the same level and loose it again several times.

well, your POWS return only if they outrank a unit currently in your battalion. simple really.if your POW tanks are regular and you have all hardened tanks, fine, the POW unit doesn't return. if you have a recruit tank, it is replaced with the POW.

the long wait is to ensure the unit killers are satisfied that they are doing significant damage to the enemy faction, and the non unit killers are satisfied that their hard work and time invested will be returned to them. eventually.

That's hardly a "middle ground".

You really expect it will satisfy the casual gamer that they get a unit back at the end of the war in several months? It wont...

The only thing that will do is ensure that at the beginning of every new war that all the "hard core" players get a battalion full of legendaries to trash the casual ones who might get a couple veterans back. After the first week or two of the war the game will be in just as bad a state as ever...

And what if you switch your battalions sometimes in those months?

Like I said...not even close to a middle ground.

Some actual fair concepts...

*Going with the POW idea...capture a downed hostile unit for a large experience unit for the capturing unit and credit reward, captured unit returned after the battle down 1 or 2 ranks.

This is still not going to do a lot to stop the ethuggery because most people wont even bother to try and capture and will just continue as always. The "moderate unit killer" might try to capture but the worst elements of the community will play no differently.

*Limit to number of hostile units you can kill before getting in trouble, if you can only kill 2 or 3 of a persons who is the same rank as you and 1 or 2 of someone who is several ranks lower(likewise 4-5 of someone higher ranked) then it will dissuade bullying especially on lower ranked players.

Could work either of two ways, if you kill the max number then it could disable targeting of downed units and/or make them invincible, or you could kill as many units as you want but if you go over the limit your units experience and credit reward from battle will be deducted.

*When a unit dies it does not completely die but instead loose one rank if under hardened and 2 if above and is then returned to your battalion.

*If a downed unit is fired upon then it begins firing back. Evac helis would also open fire.

Obviously there would have to be a "desperation" bonus to the units firing range and damage so they could hit a target who's firing at them from outside of their firing range(like JSF units with longer firing ranges) and could actually expect to hurt the offending unit to dissuade unit killing.

People who unit kill with artillery wouldn't be dissuaded and in that case I would just make it a bit harder to kill a downed unit with it.

Obviously they and the evac heli will only fire if fired upon.

I think there's a very easy fix for it:
1,Fix matchmaking
2, make it easier to UK

i think there aren't gonna be many who disagree with no.1 so let me explain how i'd go about the second.

First I'd ditch instant breakdown once you lose the 3rd squad/vehicle it makes no sense and is a botched attempt at a morale system (which should be in endwar 2.) instead you should be able to choose allow it to fight on or evac like you would normally e.g unit driving/flying off the map or in the case of infantry calling evac-copter. now if a unit is destroyed there should be a random chance that the crew make it out or like 4 infantry survive and have to hold on till a heli-evac to arrive; no sheilds and should automatically move to the nearest cover or (hopefully) if there is none, use friendly armour as a sheild
I agree that Heli evacs should laydown fire and they should lay it down hard, but they should only attack those hostiles attacking the evac'ing unit.

Now Promotions shouldn't effect the "health" of a unit, infact i'd go so far as to say upgrades shouldn't either. the strength of the countermeasures each of your units have should vary from what upgrades you have bought, but health should remain the same recruit, vet or legendary.

What should not happen is attempting to put some sort of cap on the amount of units you can kill. you've got to remeber that it plays a fundamental part in the game by ensuring only those that are able to adapt and take care of their units get to legendary but still allows it to remain relatively open to new players.

OR

Get rid of the whole emphasis on unit ranks and command points so UK doesn't matter


Simples.

quote:

Originally posted by N3V30:
OR

Get rid of the whole emphasis on unit ranks and command points so UK doesn't matter


Simples.

You need unit ranks so help out new players.

If all the units have the same rank noone can say 'OMFG U KILL'D MY LENGEDRAYR UNITZ' then noone cares about unit killing because you dont have to spend ages getting the rank back

quote:

Originally posted by N3V30:
If all the units have the same rank noone can say 'OMFG U KILL'D MY LENGEDRAYR UNITZ' then noone cares about unit killing because you dont have to spend ages getting the rank back

I'm all for lessening the emphasis on unit rank, the differences between a legendary and a recruit are so bad that a recruit gunship could never kill a downed veteran(maybe even hardened) tank in time before the evac heli got them out...but if you completely rid of it you get rid of one of endwars best features.

You wouldn't have to completely get rid of them, you could still have them ranking up but it wouldn't affect the gameplay, like an aesthetic change.

quote:

Originally posted by N3V30:
You wouldn't have to completely get rid of them, you could still have them ranking up but it wouldn't affect the gameplay, like an aesthetic change.

Well that's pretty pointless, yes it's interesting to look at your units in the first couple minutes of a conquest match before you even see an enemy, but once fighting that should be the last thing on your mind.

If bonuses from unit ranks were cut in half I would be happy.

quote:

Originally posted by N3V30:
If all the units have the same rank noone can say 'OMFG U KILL'D MY LENGEDRAYR UNITZ' then noone cares about unit killing because you dont have to spend ages getting the rank back

Exactly, so you could never downgrade units which would make it hard for new players to join.

You would be eliminating unit killing essentially, which would not be a middle ground.

quote:

Originally posted by Angry_Toaster:

quote:

Originally posted by N3V30:
If all the units have the same rank noone can say 'OMFG U KILL'D MY LENGEDRAYR UNITZ' then noone cares about unit killing because you dont have to spend ages getting the rank back

Exactly, so you could never downgrade units which would make it hard for new players to join.

You would be eliminating unit killing essentially, which would not be a middle ground.

How exactly would that make it harder for new players to join?