On the contrary. I think gamers play games for other reasons too. Take a look at any series of games. When a new one is announced, fans are excited about an extension to the storyline of their favourite characters. This goes to show that those fans grew attached to either the characters, gameplay, story or all three.

That's one of the reasons I find myself playing Mass Effect over and over again, when any sane person would have stopped long ago . If the game was comprised solely from its (admittedly subpar) combat, it would have nowhere near the longevity is actually has. You can enjoy the twists of the story first time through, and in subsequent playthroughs you can laugh as Shepard punches out a reporter on live galactic television XD.

However, I do believe that PoP:NG has, at least slightly, a deeper meaning. The Prince and Elika embody two sides of a religious coin. The Prince is the strong-willed atheist, believing that nothing happens unless a person actively changes things. Elika, on the other hand, is the devout believer, believing in her God's divine power to change things.

They both find their beliefs challenged. The Prince's belief is challenged by the seemingly unstoppable force of Ahriman, and he finds himself almost unable to do anything about it. Elika, on the other hand, has her faith challenged by Ormazd's continuing absence. Ormazd not only left her people thousands of years ago when Ahriman was first imprisoned, but he never even lifted a finger to stop Ahriman when her father released him. Of course, the Prince constantly pestering her about both Gods hardly helps.

By the end of the game, they both learn from their opposite. Elika learns from the Prince that she has to take control of her life rather than letting others dictate its course. I think that's one of the reasons she finally decides to kill herself in order to seal Ahriman. THe Prince, on the other hand, gains faith in, if not Ormazd, but the powers that Elika has. Simply leaving Elika dead and Ahriman in prison, even when Ahriman would eventually escape, represented his greatest fear - admitting that he couldn't change anything. Think about it - his parents died in a war while he was away. If it were me, I'd feel pretty helpless.

I see his releasing of Ahriman to revive Elika as his big 'two finger salute' to both Ahriman and Ormazd. Call him stupid, but he was showing both divine beings that humans had the power to change the world, for better or worse. I think this also relates to the narrator's 'One grain of sand' speech, where the Prince is a 'grain of sand' and Ahriman is the 'storm'. That may also be why finishing Epilogue is 'Leaving the Storm' - he's escaping Ahriman.

Of course, most of us also know what happens in Epilogue. The Prince keeps trying to give Elika the same confidence in her powers that he has. She, however, has finally realized that doing things Ormazd's way won't work. Finally, she takes charge of her life the same way the Prince does and leaves to find her people. I see this as a small act of rebellion from her. She's sick of the Prince always challenging her beliefs, so she demonstrates her new resolve by leaving him in the dust.

*descends into concrete Flame Bunker and waits for barrage*

Yay Harry, but what you said its not the so-called hidden message, what you said is the obvious game interpretation the average guy who played through it gets to learn about... hmmmm... *thinks*
Bah, laters

Here it is.The first part of an interesting text regarding the issue of video game film adaptations but it also regards why video games are nothing more than what they really are-video games and thus do not have hidden messages.


Three reasonable arguments of a reasonable man

On one of my daily visits to a favorite forum a friend of mine asked me “which video games do you think should be movie adapted?”My answer was predictably “none”.But of course,the subject is interesting.Video games are becoming a more profitable business,blockbuster video game budgets can cope the ones of blockbuster holywood films,and blockbusters such as Halo 3 manage in a 24 hour period to make a 170 000 000$ profit.Even though video games are not yet “mainstream” in the entertainment industry,it’s prety clear how they are coming closer to the average consumer on a pretty decent distance,therefore their live action adaptation is less coincidence and more ambitious buisness planning.Naturally,making games based on movie hits is old as the video gaming industry but the other way around process is relativelly new,interesting and capable to make gamers hearts beat incredably fast.

Luckily I’m here to explain them why is that such a bad idea.Since I’m a reasonable man I will not claim that there will never be a good film based on a video game franchise,rather than that,I’ll call upon my common sence and statistics to show you how much suffering this unholy marriage will bring upon us.

Argument A:Gamers do not play games because of their stories

I know it sounds redundant,something I must not say out loud,but there,we live in dark times where even the absolute and eternal truth does not have the monopoly of....the truth?
The impresion is that the majority of video game film adaptation symphatisers,whether they come from nerdy gamers stickied to their beloved franchise or swetty capitalists ready to double just a lil bit the profit,believe how the movie potential of games lies in their stories.This is a fair assumption.In the end,even though video games contain the word “video”, and not the word “narrative”,the fact is that the film as a visual media is still by width light years ahead of video games,no matter if films appear in an animated or live-action form.Some games demonstrate an unreal fantastic and intensly wonderfull visual design,and therefore there is no doubt that the films that try to emulate or upgrade this will become pretty odd hot-shots.In the end there is a reason why no one dared to movie adapt the works of van Gogh or Mattis(all right,when I say no one I obviously ignore the great Akira Kurosawa,but you get the point).

So,when people think of video game film adaptations,the video design is always considered,in the end he gets major credits for the poularity of a gaming franchise(there is a reason why Mortal Kombat despite it’s inferiority by all important parameters is world wide much more popular than the classic Street fighter),but the story,setting,narrative is what they place in the first plan.
Which is ofcourse an often proof why gamers dont understand why they like the games.
If gamers care for the story,if good narratives are important to them,stories that tell us deep truths,ask important questions and search for higher symbolics,I believe that they’ll read books.Or comic books.Or maybe they’d *gulp* watch films.But instead they play video games.
This is what we need to remember everytime when we listen a gamer telling us(with tears in his eyes) the fantastic story of Max Payne,Final Fantasy 7,The longest journey or Metal Gear Solid.Ask him if he ever read the MGS:Sons of liberty comic.Ask him if he ever read Raymond Chandler or Mickey Spillano(their books influenced crucially on Sam Lake-the writer of Max Payne).In most of the cases you’ll receive a negative responce.Why?Quite simple:stories are interesting for gamers,there’s no doubt about it,but the priority of the gamer is the gameplay.
Last night I had to make a choice:read my good friend’s novel(I promised him I’ll give a full review as soon as possible),or continue playing Shin Megami Tensei Digital Devil Saga.Do you know what I choosed?To play the game.Not because it has a better story than the novel’s one.Not because I didnt had the desire to follow the story,but the desire to play the game.
Anyway SMTDDS has a solid stroy by it’s standard media,genre and subgenre in wich it belongs.And last night in my gaming session I opened up a good part of the storyline coming to the dramatic conclusion that the protagonists are dead from game start and the girl I was saving the last 35 hours with heavy casualties is actually...the Devil?Exciting!But the real pleasure in my gaming session was that I found a way to defeat a very difficult opponent with a good combination of offence and deffence moves.The story here came like a strawberry on the top of a nervous,adrenalin pumped,tactical fighting gameplay.If this game consists of 35 hours of rendered movies and 5 hours of gameplay,I wouldn’t play it.Since this is the other way around,I’m in a gaming nirvana dedicating this pearl of a gaming design 2 hours of play today,then 4 hours the next week etc.
When I want to follow stories I read a book,or a comic book,or watch a film(they’re all narative medias by default) and I dont lack the interactivity(my wife is turning the pages following the move of my eye).The majority of gamers do the same.They want to see a good story in their games,but they dont play them for their stories,just as they dont buy books because of the logical or mathematicall problems in them.

*decends in Harry's concrete Flame bunker*

quote:

Originally posted by stealthero:
@Bobby
I dont have the money to buy all the games I see like some sexless geeks do, I have to decide carefully what to play, and I always check both story and gameplay before buying something

let me tell you what one of my friends does (not me definitely not me ) he downloads all the games and plays them, and the ones he loves afterward, he buys them, now, I'm not encouraging you to be a game pirate you know that

@mboltevski

I didn't finished reading the text because it's content really insults me and the own concept of being a gamer.

A game is made of 5 simple aspects:
Story
Character Development
Sound
Visual appeal
Gameplay

A game (excluding obviously a few number of genres) which lacks any of these aspects is either a bad game, a brainless game or not a game at all.

As my fellow m8 Lester already said, not everybody has the capability of creating games. The same way works for the cinematographic and literary industries.

Reading a book without story is the exact same thing as playing a game lacking one. It's brainless and stupid.
And more importantly, the ****less "kids" out there who only give a damn about "cool" graphics or gameplay are the responsibles for the underated and "controverse" Gaming universe.

@Les: Are you calling me average? D:<

@mboltevski: I hope you enjoy it in my bunker! It has video games!

Look, the thing with the gaming medium is that it doesn't NEED a good story to be successful. Look at the Halo series. You have to admit it has barely any story - but it sold remarkably well.

The fact is that with high development costs nowadays, developers need to have some certain ground to build on. Sure movies cost more to make, but movies are advertised heavily and heaps of people flock t cinemas. Games have only recently started advertising at all - and your target demographic is on average 13-25 or thereabouts (rough approximation). Therefore good gameplay is the top priority. However, games have massive potential, by virtue of their interactivity. Look, movies may be able to elicit some sort of response from you, emotional or otherwise, but you can't affect the outcome in any way. You're just an observer.

Then take Metal Gear Solid 4, for example - a game much maligned for the ludicrous cutscene length. I, however, love the game with a passion for its blend of action/thriller movie elements in its gameplay. There is a section near the end where Snake has to reach an AI's hub to shut it down. However, this is at the end of a corridor full of microwaves that will almost certainly kill him. As you stagger through the corridor, the screen splits. The top half shows Liquid's forces decimating your allies. Metal Gear RAYs swarm around the ship and you see Snake's friend Otacon hiding in fear from enemies. As Snake falters, you must press Triangle repeatedly to keep him moving as he drops to all fours, then merely crawling. As the top half of the screen flashes through all of the people counting on Snake, and the bottom half showing Snake a metre or so from the other end, it is impossible to desperately want Snake to succeed. The experience is barely describable your first time through.

Then there's the final boss. Snake and Liquid, after a Hollywood fight scene in the cutscene beforehand, are in their final showdown. Invoking nostalgia, the fight flips through the previous Metal Gear Solid games. The fight with Liquid in MGS1, Liquid Ocelot from MGS2, and Ocelot from MGS3, complete with CQC and hand gestures. Finally, the MGS4 phase, showing Snake and Ocelot for the tired old men they are. Barely able to stand, Snake is almost dead from exhaustion at the final punch.

You see, games have the potential. They just don't have enough reason to. Story can be a huge motivational tool in games, and a well-crafted story can drive the player onwards through stale patches of gameplay.

@ Harry
excellent text at the top of the page man, that's what I've been trying to write down for days, but my english sucks that's the hidden message PoPNG has, great job

@ Lester
I don't think that's the obvious game interpretation, I bet many players think it's just about the Prince helping Elika to save the world while they fall in love, that's why they don't understand the ending, I bet most gamers don't even see the religious symbolism in the game, or don't even know about the ancient myths of Ahriman and Ormazd, like Harry pointed out, the game sends out a message, that ordinary people can change the world, that's why our hero is not even a Prince, he's just an ordinary guy who might become a Prince through his actions, not through a family descendency, and that's what I wanna see in the next 2 games
I'm glad we came back on topic, Dido must be happy

@Bobby
Unfortunately I'm really tired of those type of plots. The typical "ordinary" rude guy who will learn to respect others and ascend in life while saving the day from Evil. You see, that's exactly what Prince of Persia is turning into.

A predictable and clichéd experience which brings nothing new.

Why not doing the other way around? Making the Prince a loyal and faithfull hero which will in time descend into a degrated state? I don't remember that happening very often in Action/Adventure games

Look at God of War, POP:SOTT, DMC... Whatever. They all show basically the same thing... Anti-heroes who will learn to be less selfish or less brutal (or turn into something even worse).
Of course it's not the basic intel that matters but the actual path taken by the characters, that's why Kratos is so distinct from Dante or the Prince himself. Nonetheless I have the oppinion that this new POP:NG trilogy has nothing original to show us, nothing more than a typical and boring romantic story.

A romantic relationship between a Random Guy and a Gameplay Tool.

quote:

Originally posted by mornegroth:
Nonetheless I have the oppinion that this new POP:NG trilogy has nothing original to show us, nothing more than a typical and boring romantic story.

A romantic relationship between a Random Guy and a Gameplay Tool.

That quote will now live forever in the internet community, congrats.

Anyway, I have to agree with Zerban about games.
The most important thing is that games are a different form of ...let's say 'literature'. In a book a story is being presented and a description of the plotline and character dynamics are given depend on each author. May it be for artistic reasons, eduatical motives, whatever.The reader is giving to have it's own imagination and if the author isn't either a selfragous **** or dead to give their interpretation and view of the world, can live through it by all him/herself. Maybe a reason why Harry POtter is a great saga.

Now if you play a game, your imagination won't be required. You are given the graphical aspect,which is really new in the media.
You don't need to read the passage to figure out how your protagonist feels, you can see it on his expressions or his actions. You can identify yourself with that guy. You can feel him.Like Zerban said how I felt for Snake so much as he went through that microwave or the pains he went through. Or figuring out certain smybolics or metapher I can't just read any longer. I have to see them through.

I guess that's also a reason games draw you more in than books... they have the power of illusion, showing you a projected world with all modern jugglery. Maybe like in SoT you get drawn into the world and wish to live in that because that world is better than yours. Maybe a theme of isolation and dreams...


A story is great, but I doubt SoT would be such a genius game without the graphics or, the gameplay.Many factors were required to make the game genius.

But those factors were left out in TT or the NG.
Like I said, those were Main Stream. And just trying to relativate my arguments by saying ''but the game is such a masterpiece'' without giving any decent arguments or mentioning Kindred Blades given materials and give a statement to the original concept won't work on me, sorry

Lol at the quote idea


Well, I kinda agree with that point of view, but not that much.
A game should be always considered by it's achievements as a whole and not just by litle details. Crysis, for example, is a great game not because of it's breathtaking visuals but also because of misterious plot and interesting Characters.

Also, you've pointed out the "illusion" factor, which I completly agree with. That's why I believe games are a so powerfull tool to provide deep and interesting experiences/stories. Emulating emotions such as love or hate in a game are always more difficult to accomplish but in the end they prove themselves to be much more powerfull because of the whole immersive experience.

quote:

Originally posted by mornegroth:

A game should be always considered by it's achievements as a whole and not just by litle details.

SoT is made by it's little details!
Like the Prince washing off the sand of the trousers, or the reactions of Farah if you hit or stare at her and how it changes how the game furthers, and the little track when you dring water, the Zoroastrian symbol of fire in the foundaints... don't you think this wouldn't had make the game as great without that?

I guess this is why people hate WW, because those details aren't there. I was also disappointed when I played this on the first time and later on, but other little details made that up.

But that's the problem with TT and NG. It has not such little details.
Kindred Blades seemed to have promised little details which would have stayed if not happened this retarded redesign.

@ Andre
if they made the Prince a loyal and faithful hero which will in time descend into a degraded state, then most people will hate the game and don't buy it, so Ubisoft won't risk it
so you agree that NG is just like God of War, SOT, DMC...They all show basically the same thing... Anti-heroes who learn to be less selfish or less brutal
and you can't talk about this new POP:NG Trilogy not showing originality simply because it's not a trilogy yet, let's wait until all 3 games are done and we'll talk then
for that matter, the SoT was not original also, just another hero saving the world and the princess, but we all loved it for some reason, now, it's the same thing, another prince trying to save the world and the princess and you people hate it now, it's strange

@ Tristan
you didn't give me any decent arguments about hating T2T too, I'm just following your lead
and please don't say people hate WW, Lester is gonna kill you, I love that game too and many other around here

Too many "long" and in english reads on one page... I'll keep this short.
Ok ****, after reading some huge sh¡tload on this page I came up with a conclussion and with a few answers for some of you:
@Harry: What you said is obvious man, anybody with a brain on his head could've said exactly the same you did about the game, the point is to detail what is "hidden", to detail an inteligent reason for the real intention behind the tedious and stupid ligthseeds and cheesy enemies and fagg0t omnipotent gods who are not able to hit with his huge hands a random guy and his tool friend while hanging on walls in front of his mere nose... What you said Harry was a sumary of the game with your own interpretation about it, but nothing "hidden" was showed, you know what I mean?

@Bobby: Man, you're making me look like some kind of fanboy, I dont give a damn if people likes or dislikes the games or stuff I like, for all I care people can say WW is gay, or the prince or Mass Effect or gears of war or god, I dont care ...

@Morne: Your words detailed masterfully the cheesyness of the game itself XD...
"A romantic relationship between a Random Guy and a Gameplay Tool."
And even when that's the mere "idea" the essence of the game isnt something exciting or new... Where the hell is the originality hiding these days? pure copycats, pure remakes...

@Tristan: Join our hater club

@Andre: A noble person being degraded doesn't seem the uplifting tale that people want. That's more... Joker style... I mean, what's the point if someone degrades throughout a game/series? BTW, Kratos and Dante are barely characters. Kratos is just generically rage-filled like the WW Prince and Dante has stopped developing ever since DMC3. Now, Nero is a much better character

Plus, the Prince has never been seen doing anything bad. Yes, he robs tombs, but has he ever stolen from LIVING people or randomly murdered people in his way? We get to see him come to the aid of a woman he's barely met and help her seal a dark god. Sure blusters and complains, but he never actually gave up and left, even when he had the chance.

Wow I leave for like a day and look at how many posts you boys made lol. I can't even reply to all of them, well I could but then I would feel like I'm writing a long essay for school. I'll just do this for this topic from now on.

http://img190.imageshack.us/im...ichaeljacksongif.gif

@Farah: XD I've been doing that lately too ... but this thread brought me back everybody thank DiDo, who actually havent said a word about his own topic ...
And, you can just give some quick killer replies , there's no need for long reads at all

DiDo is doing what I'm about to do.

Besides I can't do quick replies now because this topic is now a battle between the darkness and the light.

quote:

Originally posted by Grafferu:

@ Tristan
you didn't give me any decent arguments about hating T2T too, I'm just following your lead
and please don't say people hate WW, Lester is gonna kill you, I love that game too and many other around here

OH COME ON!!! I wrote a whole review about the issue of TT and why I hate this game.
You can't just say that I don't write decent arguments,yo!

It all ends with those two words: Kindred Blades!
http://www.youtube.com/profile...istan129&view=videos

Watch any damn video and you'll see what I mean. I could also write again a whole page and lose precious hours of the time I need to study, so just do me the favour and just see the videos.

Or if you still don't get it, read my review.
It is all written in there.

Tristan, don't start on the Kindred Blades thing again - Kindred Blades was what the Two Thrones was called before we changed the name. There was no separate project or whatever crazy conspiracy you wish to apply to the name.

For the rest of you, just because you don't understand/agree with something doesn't mean you can't accept it. I'm not going to give you exactly what the "hidden message" is as you'll need to work that out for yourselves

Tristan... Join the Dark Side Join our side

Ok, now seriously. Sorry but there was a misunderstanding. I completly love litle details in games, really, I do. What I meant with "litle details" was the lack of development in one or more of those features I named.
In my opinion a game should be considered by the global presentation (gameplay, story, characters, sound, graphics) and not only the achievements acomplished in just one of those.

Again, I'm sorry. I wrote it wrongly. But hey, nice comment anyway


@Chris
We know it's the same game but cmon... We have eyes and we can see the project was completly reformulated, and in a bad way. We could call it TTT Beta but since the game had a different name in that time it's more logical to call it Kindred Blades.
Chris, you wanna join the Deathbringers?
We would really enjoy to have you on our team!