I have been doing a LOT of reading over at the HuffPo..

For those of you who don't know, the HuffingtonPost (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/theblog/) is ostendibly a bastion of radical left posts and comments.

I say ostensibly, because in the week or so that I have been a regular there, I have seen a number of conservatives post there and a number of people who really are convinced the Dems are screwing up..

From what I can gather, the Dems have pretty much conceded the Nov elections to the GOP. The latest moronic move by the Dems is to ***** and moan and cry about the upcoming Torture legislation, but then they didn't even bother to show up for the Senate Hearings on the issue..

So, I think it's a forgone conclusion that the Dems will not regain control of either house this Nov...

The root of all evil? I doubt it, atheistic communism has killed more in the 20th century alone than all the religions throughout history combined.

I am always slightly amused by people who state so unequivocally, and with such unqualified assurance that religion is either the "Root of all evil" which makes no sense at all, or some other statement that has little basis in fact when -for the mmost part- they have had little or no experience with any kind of religion to begin with.
Sod- you don't give your soul-you cannot, you do not have that ability. it is something that has been given to you.
Now, where it ends up is entirely up to you, but even then you won't give it away. Either you will keep it or it will be taken from you.
Surely it is simply my opinion, but one that holds more substance than either yours or the Colorado Liberal who sometimes "kills" in G.R..
You do not "subject" your free will to a higher power.. if it is indeed free will it is done freely, because you wish it...
(If that is not inherently evil, I don't know what is...) No, you do not know what evil is..
Taking the chance I will sound perhaps slightly
inane, I do know what evil is. I and my family have experienced it firsthand, and my daughter to this day will still send chills up your spine relating her experiences when she was 6 yrs old, and has just received an A on her English paper in College, as i did 20 years earlier with the same story, told through my eyes, with what happened to her/us in that house.
My wife and my daughter and myself are just as certain that there is life after death as we are there are fools among us..
Nothing you say, no argument you can present can or will change what we have lived with collectively and singly for 30 yrs now..
And, the family that moved in right after my family fled that place-it took me a little longer to get it through my thick Irish head that perhaps i should leave also, stayed only 2 and 1/2 months before thet were forced to leave..And finally, the last family that lived there lasted only a little over a month.
Then, a single man, a man who spent most of his time drunk, an indifferent almost cruel man, moved in, and unless he has died, still lives there.
When my wife asked me once why he stayed there and wasn't forced out, I said simply the house had finally found someone that it approved of...
Those who know me well enough know also that, in spite of my "stories" i am not one who shies at every shadow and am pretty firmly rooted in reality.. In fact, when I finally "fled' that house from hell I did so only when it became crystal clear that it was simply becoming too dangerous for me to remain there and that being alone, I wasn't strong enough or simply didn't know how to protect myself from whatever had decided to "Show" itself to me...
I finally realized, after the third time, that things were getting worse each time and I was frankly a foo, to stay there alone anymore.
After all, who was I impressing. my Mother warned me several times to stay out of there, especially alone. My wife thought I was just nuts... But I was just Pi$$ed and bullheaded and determined that whatever it was -it wasn't going to chase me out.. After all, it was my damn house..
But I learned it wasn't mine, it belonged to something that wasn't of my world..
I can still, after all this time, look back and see with startling clarity everything that happened to both me and my wife and daughter..
Now some of you newer people will be tempted to think me either just pulling your legs,collectively, or that I am either aliar or a brick short of a load.
Others will believe me implicitly, because they know that I will not lie...and they have been a part of this for some years now, and have come to trust what I write...which i am grateful for..
Because gentlemen, you can tell the truth always and be know as a just and good man or lie once and forever be known as a liar..
it just isn't worth it..
Anyway:
Take care and i can't wait till i see what comes next..
Hey, paint a bullseye on your back, don't act offended when you get shot there..

Leep out: Perhaps not as far as you think:

Quote: "it is simply my opinion, but one that holds more substance than either yours or the Colorado Liberal"

Now THAT's elitist. Make a note.

I still love you Leep.

So your argument that a higher power exists revolves around an experience with a haunted house?

quote:

Originally posted by Thoramir:
The root of all evil? I doubt it, atheistic communism has killed more in the 20th century alone than all the religions throughout history combined.

I have said this more than once and I will say it again, the leaders that were most cruel were atheist. Khan, Mao, Nero, Hitler, Stalin, need I say more?

The 15+ million Jews that were killed in Russia alone outnumber all of the deaths caused by religion in this century.

I don't mean to speak for Sniper, but I don't think the point of the post (my reply anyway) was to quantify who has killed whom, as much as to assign blame to those who kill in the name of religion.

If your replies mean to infer that people kill for all types of reasons, I'd have to agree (as I stated in my first post). But killing in the name of religion seems morbidly ironic at best.

To take a wonderful idea such as the existence of a higher power, and twist it into a tool used to control people, commit genocide, and / or mass murder is, I believe, the point of the post.

This is true..ROT, but pointing to behaviour that is less than stellar by another group of people does not negarte the many great and decent things that have been done in the name of religion...by another group.
And yes, sad as it is i have to admit that that i came to the Lord, finally, because i and my family had been subjected to these serious and terrible things...
I would think that I would have been a Christian, and technically i suppose i was,because of my faith. But, I have to admit, sheepishly, that I came to the Lord only after it had been made abundantly clear that there was life after death
Even though i had seen evidence of this at a younger age, the young have a way of forgetting or putting this in the back of your mind... easier and less confusing that way..
What a wonnerful worl' ....

Leep out:

quote:

Pointing to behaviour that is less than stellar by another group of people does not negate the many great and decent things that have been done in the name of religion...by another group

I agree. I stated that in my original post.

quote:

Colorado Liberal said: "I also realize the good that comes from organized religion."

I hate it when people make it hard for me to hate them--
Leep out:

Jchung,

I obviously agree with you in general but I would be a little more careful citing specific examples of leaders.

Though it's probably impossible to pin down just what Hitler believed in as far as religious beliefs, I don't think he was an athiest. Judging by things he said and did he had sort of a psuedo Christian, occult, German mythological mixture going on inside his head and I doubt anyone could figure out what to make of it all.

We don't really know enough about Ghenghis Kahn (unless you were referring one of the other Kahns) to definitively say anything about his religious beliefs. Granted, he apparently had a lot of things other than religion on his mind, but it's probably not a good idea to claim with certainty that he was an Atheist.

I'm not an expert on Nero but I've never read that he was an atheist. At least superfically, I'd have to guess practiced the polytheistic religion of the Roman empire.

quote:

Originally posted by Thoramir:
Jchung,

I obviously agree with you in general but I would be a little more careful citing specific examples of leaders.

Though it's probably impossible to pin down just what Hitler believed in as far as religious beliefs, I don't think he was an athiest. Judging by things he said and did he had sort of a psuedo Christian, occult, German mythological mixture going on inside his head and I doubt anyone could figure out what to make of it all.

We don't really know enough about Ghenghis Kahn (unless you were referring one of the other Kahns) to definitively say anything about his religious beliefs. Granted, he apparently had a lot of things other than religion on his mind, but it's probably not a good idea to claim with certainty that he was an Atheist.

I'm not an expert on Nero but I've never read that he was an atheist. At least superfically, I'd have to guess practiced the polytheistic religion of the Roman empire.

Good things to think about, but I cite those examples because I have seen direct quotes by them (in context of the entire text of course).

Hitler was an aetheist, he did have some superstitious beliefs, but that hardly qualifies a person as a "believer" of any sort.

Is a person really a Jew if they do not attend synagogue, do not pray, and they do not participate in any of the high holy days?

Ghenghis Kahn was much like Hitler too. He did have some superstitious beliefs, but he also did not "participate" in any "religion".

Nero is the one that may be questionable, but does self worship really amount to religion? Nero considered HIMSELF to be God, so can we really call that religious in any way? Remember that Romans were required to worship him.

I don't know about you, but to me self worship does not really qualify a person as being religious.

I do understand what you are getting at, but like I said, I cited those specific leaders for a reason, and left out the ones I do not know enough about. Lenin also had much blood on his hands, but I do not know enough about his personal beliefs, hence the ommission of his name. Pol Pot is another that I am not familiar with, along with many other "mass murderers".

I suppose it all you define religion. Unforunately, there's probably as many or more definitions of the term 'religion' as religions themselves.

However, I think the biggest difference between Hitler, Nero, and Ghengis Kahn and the communist leaders (even those most of us haven't heard of) is that the communists had atheism as an agenda they weren't just atheists themselves. They expected anyone unfortunate enough to be under their rule to be one as well which was probably (I can't think of any earlier example) something entirely new in the course of recorded history.

quote:

Originally posted by Thoramir:
However, I think the biggest difference between Hitler, Nero, and Ghengis Kahn and the communist leaders (even those most of us haven't heard of) is that the communists had atheism as an agenda they weren't just atheists themselves. They expected anyone unfortunate enough to be under their rule to be one as well which was probably (I can't think of any earlier example) something entirely new in the course of recorded history.

I have to disagree to some degree here. Remember that even in the USSR the Russian Orthodox Church existed, but what it taught was closely monitored, so that the end product was a very secular religion at best.

Remeber that Hitler did the same thing here. Sure he allowed the churches doors to remain open, but just like the USSR, he closely monitored what was taught from the pulpit, so that the end product was again, a very secular religion.

The stamping out of any display of "true faith" is what leaders in both nations feared, not the act of attending a service of sorts in a physical building.

Any ruler, despot, tryant, or whatever modifier you choose can, to some degree, affect and effect what religion can do publicly. But none of the above nor any of us can have the slightest effect on what a man or woman or child holds in their heart.
What a man believes is his and his alone and nothing anyone says of does can touch that..

No ruler could ever stamp out religion, especially Christianity...For regardless of what punishment was handed either singly or collectively, it could not touch those with true faith..
The Jews could tell us all about that..faith.
Not so much the Christianity part, though i believe they understand it and can even feel it..
But they as well as anyone or anything understand the pain and the consequences of steadfast, unwavering faith...
I have to take slight issue with the assertion that the "leaders" feared, in any serious way, organized religion.
You would think that any clear thinking murdering, narcissistic, "leader" would put this into careful consideration, but surely you would agree that any of these people already saw themselves as the rulers of the "New World' so I doubt they felt that "Anything or Anyone" posed a serious threat.
These were, you remember, people who believed in their own destiny so much they were willing to sacrifice anything or anyone to achieve their twisted ends.. even the end of the civilized world..As long as they and a few trusted few remained to shape and form the new one that they believed would emerge after the dust settled.

leep out;

quote:

None of the above nor any of us can have the slightest effect on what a man or woman or child holds in their heart.

Tell that to those who have lived through genocide, oppression, or worse. I believe that your environment can affect your beliefs quite a bit.

Yes, maybe you can keep your faith through experiences such as these, as many have, but to say that it is impossible to affect someone's faith seems inaccurate.

This applies in the same way racial bigotry can make someone feel inferior. As a friend of mine, Joe Macias Sr. used to tell me. "If you tell someone he is inferior, stupid, what have you, over and over, pretty soon he will start to believe it". The same applies to religion. If you oppress people for their faith, some may be likely to question their faith, or even lose it.

Obviously history has shown that the opposite result is the case as well, however, I have to argue the blanket statement that religious beliefs are impenetrable.

ROT: Words that could only be spoken by someon ewith no faith or no belief in God or the after life.
This isn't a criticism of you in any way but what you espouse is the same litany that all non believers do.
If you believe unconditionally that your afterlife in heaven depends on your beliefs and your life-the way you live it- and your steadfast refusal to have them changed or corrupted, then that should be incentive enough to keep you straight..
Life is short my friend and death is certain, even a liberal should be able to acknowledge that truism without deep thought or extensive ponderation.. (sorry, I like to create words sometimes.)
So, if you believe the above and I believe what i do and what i believe is true, and i believe it is, well what else is there to believe..
I'm trying to think like an ultra liberal but its realy tough, even though I did vote for our Democratic Governor last election and might do the same in the senatorial race..
Ok, bartender , bring me another drink I'm getting dizzy.
Anyway, just a little levity in an otherwise unlevitated world, don't make me get serious with you..
Leep Out:

quote:

If you believe unconditionally that your afterlife in heaven depends on your beliefs and your life-the way you live it- and your steadfast refusal to have them changed or corrupted, then that should be incentive enough to keep you straight.

And nothing and nobody can sway that? C'mon Leep.

Don't take this as me bashing religion. I'm being realistic. People lose their faith all the time. Your blanket statement doesn't account for those people.

I've gone to church plenty in my life. Many gospels I've heard, speak of people losing their faith due to say, a loved one passing, a loss of a job, or another painful experience, be it cancer, crime, what have you.

Humans are a vicious species. We do ruthless things to one another. Yes Leep, people can cause one another to lose their faith.

quote:

Don't make me get serious with you

Please do get serious with me Leep. I'd welcome it, ya nutbar.

If you are familiar with scripture and have accepted the Lord and you have any experiences with the vagaries of life , chances are you have already been tested...
That is what life is, a series of tests, if you choose to view it in that vein, and how you meet these tests and challenges will determine the depth of your faith.
bad things happen to good people all the time, but i don't blame the Lord for these.
i still grieve for my Brother, my Mom and my Dad, but i don't blame God for their deaths...
If people lose their faith alll the time, they must have little time for anything else, must keep them pretty busy..
But, I am curious, and I didn't just call you a but....Do you have any hope that after you leave this world there is anything for you to look forward to?
because , you see, it has always been my assertion that people such as yourself must live a particularly empty existence. Because, if you believe in nothing, have no expection of anything, life must hold little allure..of course death probably doesn't look any better..
U get the chance, send me a P.M would you? have an innocous question that i want to ask you without making everyone else here insanely jealous...
Leep Out:

It seems that you are avoiding answering the question.

Okay, you haven't lost your faith. But it seems that you're saying, one of two things about everyone else who believes in religion or a higher power.

1. Those who do not "believe unconditionally" in religion, and practice "steadfast refusal to have (their beliefs) changed or corrupted" can actually lose their faith. But the real believers are another story.

Or

2. Nobody has lost faith in their religion due to another person's influence or action.

Which is it? 1. or 2.?

To comment on your comment, “If you are familiar with scripture and have accepted the Lord and you have any experiences with the vagaries of life, chances are you have already been tested”.

Does two out of three count? Am I being tested even if I believe that there is no God, but in fact there is one? See, I am familiar with scripture. There are a lot of us who grew up experiencing religion, and then came to the realization that we really have no idea what exists after death if anything at all.

On to your next question, “Do you have any hope that after you leave this world there is anything for you to look forward to?”

I have no idea what exists after death if anything at all. I believe that if we all sit down and think about it, we will all agree that none of us know. If you believe that there is life after death, then that is your hope, or your assertion. It is the basis of your faith. This is not something that you know. It is something that you are hopeful for.

Further, you state that “people such as yourself must live a particularly empty existence”.

This is a perplexing concept to me. That one would find more value in their life if it included the belief in a story, than a life without belief in the story. ???? So people on a deserted island, who have never come into contact with someone able to tell them this story, lead a particularly empty existence?

Then you said, “If you believe in nothing, have no expectation of anything, life must hold little allure.” Just so you know, my life is very full. I have a happy marriage, a happy family and a happy home. I believe in myself, in my family, and in my friends and co-workers. I have expectations of myself. Just because I do not believe that something mysterious may happen when I die, does not make my life less full.

Faith is the antithesis of proof. I refuse to live my life hoping for the unknown. I feel I can use my time more wisely by relying on what I have the power to accomplish, rather than relying on the hope that there is more to life than life.

Glad you have a full life-
I believe in an after life because as i have stated before i had insurmountable proof that there is life after death.
Now, you and others have only my word that any of this occurred, and even if you believe that i believe i and my family witnessed/lived through something supernatural, that certainly does not mean much to you, or anyone else for that matter..
And, i can understand that because even when I am told of like experiences others had, I find myself looking at these with a jaundiced eye....
Funny...
As i have stated here and other places numerous times, if what you believe/don't believe is true, then you will never know. if, however, what I assess and profess is truth, is indeed true, then you , my friend are in a world of ****..

To answer the most important question you posed:
If you are saved, really saved and you put the Lord first in your life, then no one or no thing will ever be able to disavow you of that faith.
What can they do to you or take from you that can change what comes next. Nothing.
For this impermanent time we spend here is just the precursor to what comes later. And what would ever change that. The fear of death. Surely you jest.
For why would anyone change their belief in God because someone threatens them with death?
Death is what releases us from this life of pain, and believe me I know a LOT about pain, and allows us to enter into Heaven..
So why would I, or anyone say, "Ok, let me live and i will turn my back on God," then they allow me to live, for how long?
And then I die anyway and have to stand before my Lord and have him tell me to hit the road and take that long sliding board to hell... Kinda disingenuous eh?
it is difficult, at times , to profess a belief in God and Christ and Heaven and Hell without sounding sometimes like some kind of fanatic. Which turns people away from the Word..
No one likes a fanatic, regardless where they come from or stand...
i am not a man who goes out and stands on a street corner and shouts about the end and confess your sins , the end is near...
I think that does no one any good and turns more people away than it serves..
But, you would be surprised at the number of young people here and other places that have a real need and desire to learn about the Lord...
They have no voice where they live, either out of fear or embarassment or whatever reason..
I like to believe they can come here and read my words and those of a few others and learn, ask, or just sit back and read and get some hope, some faith..
Because , even though i do not actively try to enlist Christians, i will not turn my back on them....
Glad you have a good life and a good family. I know how important they are. but think how much better it would be to know that you could see all the people you love and care for again, for ever.
True, a very difficult to grasp and understand, it still is for me, but a comfort nevertheless..
You are probably closer to the Lord than you think, my strange Colorado friend...

Take care:

Leep Out:
(Not as far as you might think)