I gave up long long ago on any game implementing any sort of realistic/ worthwhile hammer that basically wasnt a worse version of the sword (Neverwinter Nights) or cliche "MAX DAMAGE, SUPER SLOW" (Guild Wars).

Its all in the physics which never seem to be taken into consideration.

A greatsword is heavy, but the weight is better balanced so you could weild it longer without fatigue as well as get smoother quicker "center of gravity" moves up close.

A greataxe is less well balanced compared with a sword but then thats to its advantage, focusing the weight usually, on the rather large blade which gives it a MUCH greater "chopping" force than a sword due to gravity assistance and weight distrubution. It'll tire you quicker from all the swinging though.

Take a greatsword, swing it with all the force you can manage against a fullplated armoured knights shoulder, you'll probably put a nasty dent in the armour and maybe cut the shoulder....a bit. Do the same thing with a greataxe and you'll more likly than not cleave off his arm. Axes were highly popular weapons because they could be used to decapitate even an armoured knight by swinging it in a figure of 8.

(My point with all of this, is why swords? Why?!)

Now, a hammer which is where the real fun lies. A hammer has what could be considered the worst weight distrubution of the three (by sword lovers), but has more weight concentrated in the head.

Swing a hammer with all your force against an armoured fullplated knights shoulder and he'll discover the uselessness of that armour as the force of the hammer shatters his shoulderbones, turns that general tissue area into pulp, experiences body shattering pain as his nervous system takes the blow and suffers very probable and very serious internal bleeding. Infact whatever the hammer hits it'll basically destroy, be it arms, legs, hands, skull, ribcage, collarbone.

Get a brick wall, hit it 10 times with a greatsword, you'll barely scratch it, hit it 10 times with an axe, you'll have made a decent gash (as well as blunting the sword and axe) hit it 10 times with a hammer, and the wall will probably crumble under 1 of those hits. (So forget about trying to use a shield)

So again, why? Why are we so rarely given the option to chose from a multitude of weapons and why, when we are, are they so unrealistic? (The swords randomly always seem to be the better choice despite suffering from many more limitations than the other weapons.)


Also, maybe Assassins should get a "Bollocker", those were curved spikes used against knights that had fallen on the ground for whatever reason. The crotch was a weak armour point...so....work it out. This was a very common thing, hence the English phrase "Your Bollocked"

Would be a funny thing to see in DM.

I say that instead of new classes we should gain also money with our kills/flag captures to buy other kind of weapons and magical weapons...

^ to follow up on Rock's comment about weapons.

even though hammers have the greatest impact due to the design and the ability for the wielder to put great momentum behind the blow, swords do tend to be martial artists weapons of choice for many reasons. (in bigger warfares, spears are favored (due to cost,range, and its simplicity). but in smaller, more personal combats among skilled fighters, swords are the weapon of choice)

when a fighter, i mean a seasoned fighter, look for a weapon, there are a few factors that are critical. control, impact, reach and maneuverability are the big four.

"the weapon should be an extension of a well trained fighter's arm." I'm sure many of you have heard of this somewhere. this is what the "maneuverability" factor is seeking. Between swords, axes,and war hammers, the design of the sword is best suited in terms of "maneuverability". The blade has a balanced weight distribution, not concentrated on the head like the Axe or the Hammer, this, combined with the design of the hilt, and the weight put behind the hilt, gives the sword wielder a very easy way to turn and change the direction of his/her blade.

in terms of impact, or to generalize, "damage capability", The sword is again, the "most balanced". Hammers and Axes are capable of generating a more destructive force than a sword with the same force of a swing. But with a sword (and many other weapons), there are more than one way to inflict wound onto an opponent, whether it be a thrust, a slash, or simply putting the blade on enemy's flesh then pull really fast (a paper cut?), the sword has more ways to inflict wounds that are painful... though perhaps not as severe and lethal as that of an axe or hammer.

depending on the type of hammer, axe, or sword, the range really can't be discussed in depth. (this is more of a factor when we are comparing say... a quarterstaff to a axe).

last but not least, "control" is also a critical factor. "control" is different from "maneuverability", and to make everyone's life easier, thinking of a nunchaku or a three-sectioned-staff when comparing control and maneuverbility. A nunchaku master has great "maneuverability" of the weapon and can really control it like an extension of his/her finger. But upon hitting a target, it takes the wielder almost 0.75 seconds to regain control of the nunchaku, that is, to regain enough control of the weapon for another strike. the uncontrolled "backlash" time, and its undesirable reach offsets the benefit of having such great maneuverability of the weapon. Same analogy can be used to compare a hammer and a sword.

this post really has nothing to do with this post... but I saw quite a few weapon analysis shows on discovery/wikipedia. and just felt like to share some interesting tid-bits. (i'm also quite bored )

ofcourse warhammers and axes beat swords when it comes to hacking.. but one thing that those 2 need is the "thrust" option, which basicly is when you use the pointy end.

so what is the point of having a greatly weighted hammer to crush your enemies if you miss and you will get thrusted?

sword and axes have always been some of the most common weapons of all time, due to the balance.

i know there exist hammers with a spiked top, but you seriously can't use the hammer as a spear and try to thrust the enemy to death. Spikes on hammer heads were used to finish of fallen warriors.

but i will ask again, who is actually modding MP at the moment? It doesn't seem like anyone is?

I think it's odd you described the two sides as Good and Evil.
The so-called 'good guys' seem to be worshipers of Ser'eth so in a round about way they indirectly worship the forces of chaos and destruction.
Were as the 'bad guys' are actually the Necromancers and just study the dark arts of Entropy, the 'other side' of Ashan.

quote:

We already have backstab and bomb assassins.

Sure we do, but it isn't an extreme. Only using bombs has no point to be honest. We have daggers-assassin and that's it, bombs are just utility if you ask me

Yes, that's what you think.

No, suiciding Assassin really isn't an option really

look at the servers and you will find quite some that seems to have a different opinion ("but it's the only way for an assassin to kill!!!1111elvelenelevenoneoneone" (ever thought of having a higher damage per time AND stamina than warris at low levels and bs? ^^))

and to join in the weapon discussion: i request musashis 2 weapon style then ^^

I still like the idea of a warhammer or doubble ax >-< . I want the dragons.

Wow, Druid is wining. Reminder on druid stats;

Good changes into a bear with a bite and claw atack. Evil changes into a dreadwolf with bite atack and a short range frost breath, both druids get a staff and can change forms whenever they choose.On the upgrade tree, one side is for the bear/dreadwolf and the other side is for the druid. The druid has spells like locust/wasp swarm, brush fire(causes bramble patches to catch fire) which will encourage teamwork and plauge(will cause brambles to die out and burn better[won't put out fire<possability of the brambles not disapearing and alowing druids to stack a few fires>]).

Also to balence the characters, Ninjas can have extreme weakness to magic and fire(a normal fireball and fire arrow [together] will kill the ninja, a lvl 2 fireball will kill a ninja, 3 lvl 3 fire arrows will kill the ninja, any lvl fire orb on a direct hit will be an instant kill).

DRUID IS WINNING
COME ON YOU DRAGON LOVERS, VOTE FOR DRAGONS

quote:

Originally posted by Out4Blood4:
I never said this was to take place imidiatly. I am just proposing new characters. Besides if you just buff up the other characters you will have to buff them all up,

I'm pretty sure that's what he was proposing. I don't think he meant to add a bunch of new abilities to one class only.

quote:

ninja is NOT an assasin,

yes, yes he is. By definition the Ninja is an Assassin. Straight from dicitionary.com: "a member of a feudal Japanese society of mercenary agents, highly trained in martial arts and stealth (ninjutsu), who were hired for covert purposes ranging from espionage to sabotage and assassination".

quote:

it is completely different, it is pure black so it can hide in shadows,

there are no pure black shadows in game for a character to disappear in. This is why Assassins have stealth.

quote:

It is meant as a long range sniper. It has very low health.

This is the Archers job. If you look every interview and review of the game they all say the Archer is the sniper of multiplayer.

quote:

The ogre is like I said; meant to clear a path and take all the blows.

The Warrior already fills this role.

quote:

The priestess is a healer, the druid is a warrior/buffer.

The priestess is a buffer she just doesn't have a lot of abilities right now. I'm with Setna on this espicially where this class is concerned. She needs more abilities, not a whole other class to push her aside.

quote:

The Minataur is just a knight with different atributes, like a rook(castle) and a bishop in chess.

Again, the Warrior fills this role. The Warrior has the fastest sprint speed plus has upgradable abilities like charge to close the distance.

quote:

I am just proposing new characters. Besides if you just buff up one of the other characters you will have to buff them all up, my solution was to creat a new character.

They pretty much have all the bases covered with the classes they have now. Anything else would just be a hybrid class of two existing ones.

quote:

Originally posted by setna:
Honestly I think new classes is not a good idea when the other classes still need work. I'd rather see more diversity in current classes.

Agreed. My roommate and I were actually discussing this the other day. "What new abilities should there be?". "Who should get what?" and so forth.

quote:

lets talk abilities we could add
-Ice and necromancy trees for mages

I agree with that the Mage needs other schools of magic added and Ice was one I had came up with as well. Necromancy on the other hand I don't think works. Here's why; The whole Multiplayer experience is built around Stonehelm's conflict with the Necromancers. With Stonehelm viewing Necromancers as evil it doesn't make a whole lot sense to have it as an ability for a Human Mage. Which is also why a Necromancer class would not work at all either. Whatever classes you come up with it has to make sense for both sides.

If Necromancy was added as an ability I personally think it would be a better fit for the Priestess. Sort of like the dark side of her resurrection ability much like heal/corrupt.

quote:

-more defined curse/corrupt powers for priestesses (dot stuff)

Agree once again. I had also thought of some specialty abilities that appear in Single Player side but not the Multiplayer side such as Charm/Mind Control.

quote:

-crossbows for archers, explosive arrows, speed shooting buff

thought of the explosive arrow as well. It would fit nicely in the existing tree after fire arrows.

quote:

-assassins make: poison dagger, arterial dagger, feign death, and disguise useful

I think disguise is as useful as its going to get. Any player that's paying half attention can notice the name above her head and say to themselves, "hey, that guy was on the other team just a minute ago. Let me check F1 real quick. Yup, assassin disguised." The only way to make disguise better would be if it randomly created a new name for you. But then that would be a little overpowered.

quote:

-oh yeah rope arrows for archers and short swords for close range defense ^.^

I can see the use of this if it helps archers get to high points that other classes can't get to so they can full fill there sniper destiny. Of course the drop back being you just left a rope for someone else to climb up after you.

quote:

Theres plenty of neat stuff we can do to expand the game without adding new classes. Infact I think we should do away with classes all together and have a pool of melee, magic, and utility abilites like from singleplayer...cloaking archers, melee priestesses, fireball slinging assassins!

I'm not so crazy about this idea because it defeats the purpose behind DM Multiplayer which was/is to have class based multiplayer.

that's all very well and good salvation, but in dark messiah multiplayer, your opponents aren't going to be a brick wall are they, if this changes though I'm sure they'll add in a war hammer to let you beat the **** into those fiendish brick walls for you!

........you guys are no fun. I wanted new character as a sort of combonmation of feats and abilitys. For example; say a character has AB abilities and another has BC abilities, i wanted one with AC abilities.

I WANT EXPLODING ARROWS.

I am now a great ctf map player. On one round I was an archer and i kept shooting this guy as he was crossing the right bridge, it was soooooo funny I always hit him with my fire arrows and always won. If you see needles tell him thanks for me, he reserected(no thanks to those assasins ) and stone skined me a lot.

I'M STARTING A NEW CLAN. IT'S CALLED THE "Bloodlings". I AM LOOKING FOR GOOD SNIPERS WITH BOWS. WE ONLY USE FIRE ARROWS AND NORMAL ARROWS WITH QUIVER UPGRADES(FASTER RELOADING)AND RANGE UPGRADES If you would like to join please let me know. I'm searous about it. My dream is to have like 15 archer rapidfireing fire arrows to creat a rain of fire that noone can avoid. When I get some members I will plan some meetings.

Hello everyone nice ideas you got! I think that a general skill/spell update of all classes or just a new class (which is this thread topic) can make this game even more fun, richer and interesting to play.

I would like to see all classes have more weapons.
Warriors:
Swords, Axes, Hammers and longsword collection to choose from.. 2 weapons per type considering bandwidth limitations.Each weapon has different maneuverability , damage and weight attribute.
Assassins:
Katana, Nunchaks or even shuriken stars.
Katana: Inflicts more damage than daggers with improved range but no backstabs possible and Assassins stamina is impacted (like warriors).
Nunchaks: Inflicts less damage than daggers but hits faster and around the assassin (good when surrounded by multiple soft targets. Picture Bruce Lee for this one).
Shuriken: Shuriken could inflict minimal damage but stall/slow down the enemy (like bramble arrow/mana drain) .Can be blocked.


Rest of 'Soft' Classes:
I suppose every class could have a weapon except the staff, some sort of blade or even a hook like in sp. However use of this better weapon will drain their endurance like the warrior and wont be able to slash as fast as him or the assassin.

I think that this changes wont unbalance the classes as i am increasing the range of the assassin but also improving the close comblat capabilities of all the other classes with the added weapons

Having a similar function as CSS to buy weapon could be a nice feature if well implemented. Weapons could be brought with the currency earned by killing enemies of by taking capture points or with your XP amount. Buy some new goodies or lvl up?? Okay lets say we have a system like this... What weapons can we buy, and are all the classes able to buy those weapons? Some kind of class and lvl restriction depending on the weapon? Maybe lock some skill(s) in order to possess that weapon(s).I realize i am dreaming but here is some examples to illustrate further my idea:
Assassin Weapons:
Fire Daggers:
Just like Normal Daggers but causes fire damages. Power strike sets enemy aflame:
Lightning Daggers:
Just like fire Daggers but power strike stuns target for 3sec.
Bramble Daggers:
Inflicts less than a usual dagger but every hit causes 2 sec brambles and power strike about 5 sec.
Fire Shuriken:
Like fire arrow but 50% its damage:
Poison Shuriken: (cannot use poison daggers)
Like poison arrow but 50% its damage
Artirial Shurikencannot use arterial daggers)
Like Arterial Daggers but health decrease rate is slower.
Soul Katana:
The most powerful Assassin weapon which drinks the soul of the fallen foe and cannot be resurrected.

Warrior Weapons:
Has access to Fire and Lightning enchanted swords,longswords, Axes and Hammers.

Archer Weapons:
Fire crossbow: requires fire arrow which it disables
More damaging than the fire bow but with slower firing rate.
Poison crossbow: requires poison bow which it disables
Exact as Poison bow but inflicts more damage.
Generally every weapon of the archer but in a crossbow edition except drill arrow which is already really powerful

Priest Weapons:
Okay this are not weapon but more like spells/gadgets.
Mana Sphere Amulet:
Just like the healing sphere lets her create a sphere where team mates regenerate mana faster and where enemies mana burn.
Massive stone skin Amulet: Requires Stone skin
Stone skin many team mates in a certain radius or petrify(stun) enemy for a limited amount of time.
Massive blind Amulet: Requires Blind
Blinds a certain amount of of enemies around the enemy blinded (depending on the radius effect and duration varies)
Brambles Amulet: Requires Brambles.
Doubles the area of the brambles cast and does not apply to allies.
Resurrection Amulet: requires resurrect
Poison Cloud Amulet: requires poison cloud
Doubles area covered and current effect


Mage weapons/optimizers
Right! wont seem really a mage if he is wondering around with a fire axe!
Magic Shield Amulet: Double the radius of current magic shield
Magic Burn Staff: inflicts Damage like a regular staff but on mana too.
Necromancer Robe: Adds Necromancy tree
Magic opposite Robe:inverses your tree from fire and lightning to Water and Earth.


New class/other Thoughts:
Like it has been said in this forum devs have covered pretty much every possible class and a new class would probably be a hybrid from 2 others. I would even say that current classes are a hybrid of modern CTF shootem'up classes. Assasin is like a mix of scout( think spikes and bombs) and spy( think disguise and backstab).SO what the hell why not a new class? New support , defense or assault class? Or 3 new classes?
Support Class:
Summoners:
Somebody that summons bot controlled allies (undead or human NPCs depending on side) and mountable s like horse or Dragons. Ride and attack or just for moving from point A to B faster? Ride an attack would make mages ending up on a horses an being impossible to catch... Same applies to dragons. to Be able to summon a Pao Kai should be cool. Riding it however would overpower the person riding it and would end up just having air battles between pao kais not really their assisting teammates or serving the purpose of the map.


Attack/ defense Class:
Demon: A mix between warrior and archer with some special abilities. Have the most resistance to magic (fire or lightning) He could use a trident for close range fighting and that could create earthquakes and stun enemies. He could have some hellish projectiles with limited range. Impale his victims with his horns like the warriors shield bash.He could Possess a victims soul and take control of the enemy by getting in him( go behind enemy like back stab to do it). If his original body is attacked he must return to it or he will die.Mana drain like assassins feign death. A priest can exorcist an ally.



Voilà here is my opinion on the subject! Please feel free to criticize my suggestions. Really hope developers get the time to read this this thread and make something happen!

....wow. Good ideas. Personally i'v never played as an assasin, warior or priestss. You know how in the old dungens and dragons style games you could choose from a variety of spells? Well I think it would be cool to try that in a real-time game like DMoM&M. For one, i think mages should be able to cast fire sword, to buff uo an allies sword or to summon one for himself, mainly to provide protection from those wariors who charge into like 10 mages who are low on mana. I don't want it as a rival to the normal sword but just to help out us mages. Also I think archers should have a shortsword for the same reason, to provide protection from those wariors who are hiding behind corners then spamming charge. They should do like half as much dmg as a normal atack, so ppl dont use only them. You know how in books and games mages sacrafice their health and/or strength(Dragonlance series is a great example, and my favorite series of books)? Well look at Gandalf, he was astride a horse useing a staff AND a longsword.

quote:

say a character has AB abilities and another has BC abilities, i wanted one with AC abilities.

As you were saying about hybrids......
Hello everyone nice ideas you got! I think that a general skill/spell update of all classes or just a new class (which is this thread topic) can make this game even more fun, richer and interesting to play.

I would like to see all classes have more weapons.
Warriors:
Swords, Axes, Hammers and longsword collection to choose from.. 2 weapons per type considering bandwidth limitations.Each weapon has different maneuverability , damage and weight attribute.
Assassins:
Katana, Nunchaks or even shuriken stars.
Katana: Inflicts more damage than daggers with improved range but no backstabs possible and Assassins stamina is impacted (like warriors).
Nunchaks: Inflicts less damage than daggers but hits faster and around the assassin (good when surrounded by multiple soft targets. Picture Bruce Lee for this one).
Shuriken: Shuriken could inflict minimal damage but stall/slow down the enemy (like bramble arrow/mana drain) .Can be blocked.


Rest of 'Soft' Classes:
I suppose every class could have a weapon except the staff, some sort of blade or even a hook like in sp. However use of this better weapon will drain their endurance like the warrior and wont be able to slash as fast as him or the assassin.

I think that this changes wont unbalance the classes as i am increasing the range of the assassin but also improving the close comblat capabilities of all the other classes with the added weapons

Having a similar function as CSS to buy weapon could be a nice feature if well implemented. Weapons could be brought with the currency earned by killing enemies of by taking capture points or with your XP amount. Buy some new goodies or lvl up?? Okay lets say we have a system like this... What weapons can we buy, and are all the classes able to buy those weapons? Some kind of class and lvl restriction depending on the weapon? Maybe lock some skill(s) in order to possess that weapon(s).I realize i am dreaming but here is some examples to illustrate further my idea:
Assassin Weapons:
Fire Daggers:
Just like Normal Daggers but causes fire damages. Power strike sets enemy aflame:
Lightning Daggers:
Just like fire Daggers but power strike stuns target for 3sec.
Bramble Daggers:
Inflicts less than a usual dagger but every hit causes 2 sec brambles and power strike about 5 sec.
Fire Shuriken:
Like fire arrow but 50% its damage:
Poison Shuriken: (cannot use poison daggers)
Like poison arrow but 50% its damage
Artirial Shurikencannot use arterial daggers)
Like Arterial Daggers but health decrease rate is slower.
Soul Katana:
The most powerful Assassin weapon which drinks the soul of the fallen foe and cannot be resurrected.

Warrior Weapons:
Has access to Fire and Lightning enchanted swords,longswords, Axes and Hammers.

Archer Weapons:
Fire crossbow: requires fire arrow which it disables
More damaging than the fire bow but with slower firing rate.
Poison crossbow: requires poison bow which it disables
Exact as Poison bow but inflicts more damage.
Generally every weapon of the archer but in a crossbow edition except drill arrow which is already really powerful

Priest Weapons:
Okay this are not weapon but more like spells/gadgets.
Mana Sphere Amulet:
Just like the healing sphere lets her create a sphere where team mates regenerate mana faster and where enemies mana burn.
Massive stone skin Amulet: Requires Stone skin
Stone skin many team mates in a certain radius or petrify(stun) enemy for a limited amount of time.
Massive blind Amulet: Requires Blind
Blinds a certain amount of of enemies around the enemy blinded (depending on the radius effect and duration varies)
Brambles Amulet: Requires Brambles.
Doubles the area of the brambles cast and does not apply to allies.
Resurrection Amulet: requires resurrect
Poison Cloud Amulet: requires poison cloud
Doubles area covered and current effect


Mage weapons/optimizers
Right! wont seem really a mage if he is wondering around with a fire axe!
Magic Shield Amulet: Double the radius of current magic shield
Magic Burn Staff: inflicts Damage like a regular staff but on mana too.
Necromancer Robe: Adds Necromancy tree
Magic opposite Robe:inverses your tree from fire and lightning to Water and Earth.


New class/other Thoughts:
Like it has been said in this forum devs have covered pretty much every possible class and a new class would probably be a hybrid from 2 others. I would even say that current classes are a hybrid of modern CTF shootem'up classes. Assasin is like a mix of scout( think spikes and bombs) and spy( think disguise and backstab).SO what the hell why not a new class? New support , defense or assault class? Or 3 new classes?
Support Class:
Summoners:
Somebody that summons bot controlled allies (undead or human NPCs depending on side) and mountable s like horse or Dragons. Ride and attack or just for moving from point A to B faster? Ride an attack would make mages ending up on a horses an being impossible to catch... Same applies to dragons. to Be able to summon a Pao Kai should be cool. Riding it however would overpower the person riding it and would end up just having air battles between pao kais not really their assisting teammates or serving the purpose of the map.


Attack/ defense Class:
Demon: A mix between warrior and archer with some special abilities. Have the most resistance to magic (fire or lightning) He could use a trident for close range fighting and that could create earthquakes and stun enemies. He could have some hellish projectiles with limited range. Impale his victims with his horns like the warriors shield bash.He could Possess a victims soul and take control of the enemy by getting in him( go behind enemy like back stab to do it). If his original body is attacked he must return to it or he will die.Mana drain like assassins feign death. A priest can exorcist an ally.



Voilà here is my opinion on the subject! Please feel free to criticize my suggestions. Really hope developers get the time to read this this thread and make something happen!
That would work great with a $ system, like buying upgrades for weapons.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Out4Blood4,