Hi,

I was wondering how many of you have learned to win with the king and queen vs king and rook against Chessmaster. I had a goal of learning to win the k+q vs k+r ending against Chessmaster and the toolbox on www.chessmagnetschool.com.
What is getting to change my mind is that I read on Jeremy Silman's web site that one should not waste their time on learning this ending because people come across it twice in their life time. Bruce Pandolfini said in Chesscafe.com in response to a question that it is a waste of time. I have heard learning this ending is a lot of effort with too little pay off. I have heard another grandmaster say this is a complicated ending and we should find a book that has a whole chapter on it.

Knowing how complicated and how much time and effort it takes to learn how to win with this is causing me to give up my pursuit.

I have inputted examples from John Nunn's book Secrets of Pawnless Endings and examples from Fundamental Chess Endings. I spent a lot of time putting stuff from John Nunn's book. Someone showed me that Clarinetboy wrote a tutorial on this. I see that Clarinetboy said there is a logical and learnable step which makes me think not give up on this ending.

I remember I used to find the bishop and knight ending tough, and I would not even with against Chessmaster even once in the game room or drills with this ending. Than I learned two patterns were you mate when the king is on the opposite color of the bishop to the corner of the same color bishop. 1st one is when the king is playing passive defense were it does not run from its rank and the second one is were the king runs from its rank which is the active defense. When I learned that I was winning against Chessmaster just about everytime the other times I made a human mistake and this also enabled me to beat the toolbox on chessmagnetschool.com.

One time I did not believe the bishop and knight ending was straight forward to learn and now I know a person does not have to spend days or weeks to learn it and it is straight forward.

I am wondering if the same thing could be said from the k+q vs k+r ending. It seems every book shows the Philidor's position. Fundamental Chess Endings and Secrets of Pawnless Endings talk about breaking down the 3rd rank defense. I visited A.J. Goldby's web site http://www.angelfire.com/games4/lifemasteraj/endgames/special_e-g_article.html were he breaks it down to 1. Philidors position 2. Goldsby position 3. RAM and 4. The Wall.

Right now when I have CHessmaster play from the Philidor's position I win. I am thinking I should practice and learn how to beat it from the Goldby position, the RAM and the Wall. Maybe that will give me the skills to beat it consistently on its drill?

I was wondering if there is anyone here who like me was struggling and not winning with this ending than learned this ending and is able to beat Chessmaster every time and can write your own testimonial for an infomercial, this is how I did it and so can you:-)lol? If you did learn to beat it every time, how did you end up learning? It seems like this ending could take up hundreds of pagings of reading. Is winning this ending involve a lot of intuitive steps?

One time I was looking for a software that would help me learn to win the bishop and knight ending as well as king and queen vs king and rook. I wonder if such a software really exists.

I am thinking can this ending like bishop and knight were you can tell someone memorize this or learn this and they will be able to do it every time. I wonder if there are straight forward advice for king + queen vs king and rook ending or it is just too much involved. I am figuring if I learn to beat Chessmaster than I will have learned the essentials. I wonder if Chessmaster is as difficult as any chess software with this ending?

Parag

Ebutaljib,

I saw a post by Clarinetboy, he wrote down something that had drive letters like a: or b:. Is there a download section here were I can see the examples Clarinetboy made?

Ebutaljib, the critical positions you say I would have to remember, would the ones mentioned here http://www.angelfire.com/games4/lifemasteraj/endgames/special_e-g_article.html be it?

I would agree with you on constant practice. I imagine if i practiced after the solution for a month. I would be able to do this ending consistently year after year on Chessmaster.

Right now I have made the decision to move on to other things in chess. But I am figuring I may want to learn other queen endings but it seems like rook and pawn endings is the one to learn.

Maybe when I learn other stuff this ending will become easier.

Parag

Ejulatib:

Tell me if this looks familiar to you {b:8/3k4/6r1/2QK}{d:3000}{h:a6b6c6d6e6f6g6h6}{d:4000}{s:c5a7}{h2:a7b7c7d7e7f7g7h7c6d6e6}{d:2000}{h:c6d6e6}{s:d7e8}{d:2000}{s:a7c7}{h2:d8}{d:2000}{s:g6h6}{d:3000}{s:h6g6}{d:1000}{g:BRg6}{d:1000}{s:g6a6}{d:2000}{s:c7c8}{d:1000}{a:cc8e8}{a:cc8a6}{d:2500}{r}{d:1000}{s:c8c7}{s:a6g6}{o}{d:4500}{s:g6h6}{d:2000}{s:}{d:2000}{s:d5e5}{a:be5f6}{d:2000}{r}{s:h6g6}

I dont know if C1arinetboy was referring to a drive or whatever.

knight and bishop mate I can do, on Chessmaster drills and game room as well as the toolbox on www.chessmagnetschool.com. So, I am confident in that mate even though I cant say I know all the nuances of it. A little bit like the two bishops mate, I can do it but cant say I know the major nuances of it or the fastest way.

I will look over the links you gave me. You are right there have been examples were Grandmasters
did not accomplish the mate in regular games, made mistakes or did not make the most optimal moves. I heard Dvoretsky used a computer for his section on king and queen vs king and rook.

Some books or certain places online refer to this ending as one of the elementary mates which is misleading. Even with the knight and bishop mate. That mate I heard about experts and one master not being able to complete in a tournament.

Right now I know I learn best with software. I have not checked out DVDs but I think with Frank Muller's DVD or other ones like Roman, you have to have the Fritz software and I dont have a DVD player in my computer.

For the toughest endings it helps to have the best learning tools. Ejulatib, are familiar with any chess ending software?

Parag

Ebutaljib,

I have Chessmaster 9000, so I dont have anything that says Academy Room. I get a message saying the file is damaged or is not a chessmaster file. How do I go about loading this from Chessmaster 9000?

Parag

Ebutaljib:

What you said worked for me perfectly. I also did the same thing with knight and bishop but I renamed it Knight. I think this is a great idea since the basic tutorials is not necessary for me now.

Now the tough part is to win the king+queen vs king and rook mate. I swear once I get this mate down. I will practice with Chessmaster and the toolbox on chessmagnetschool.com for a weeks everyday and than after that once a week for a while so I never forget it. Right now I dont practice knight and bishop mate but because at one time i was practicing constantly the techniques have been ingrained in me.

I have also tried to put in opening traps. That has worked to.

Thanks for your assistance Ebutaljib, if I win this ending, I owe it all to you.

At one time you learned to win this ending from the tutorial? It sounds like Stranded mastered this ending.

Parag

Ebutalijib:

When you say patterns, I am trying to get what you mean. With Bishop and knight, I would take it the two patterns from were the king is on the opposite color of the bishop to move it to the same color bishop.

With King and queen vs king and rook. I am not sure what you mean. Do you mean learning to win from the Philidors position and Goldsby position? Do you mean learn the moves or patterns on winning from the philidors position, Goldsby position and third rank defense?

I have Nunn's book which is more comprehensive and I am thinking I should learn this mate or be able to do it just from learning from the book.

I learned the knight and bishop by learning two patterns and practicing and I am wondering if I can learn the king and queen vs king and rook the same way?

Parag

Ebutaljib, right now I am saying shame on me for getting you to go back and study and go crazy for this ending:-) When I think of Qc4, I think of third rank defense. Right now instead of playing I am going to spend more time studying this ending. Right now I copied C1arinetboy's game against chessmaster in my game room so I could look it over and I am also trying to play against CM 9000 from that same position and fortunately Chessmaster will give the same refutals in Clarinetboy's game so it will make it easier for me to remember some steps.

This reminds of the bishop and knight mate were books will tell you the steps or patterns when the king is in the last rank and when the king is in the corner opposite color of the bishop. But you wont find instructions really for driving the king to the last rank or the opposite color of the bishop. That is either intuitive or you just have to be able to figure out on your own. Fortunately for me I was able to figure out maybe not as well as a computer but I have been able to win in the under 50 move rule. So, in one way learning this ending is quite similiar to winning the bishop and knight ending.

Ebutalijib, you must know the Goldsby position?

Right now in regards to this ending I am thinking Philidor's position, Goldsby position, the RAM and breaking the third rank defense which we do with Qc4.

Right now I am thinking memorization is one of the keys to learning this ending and than understanding.

Parag

Ebutaljib:

I think I might be making progress in this ending. Right now I memorized the game that C1arinetboy has played against Chessmaster. I learned or memorized the scenario of breaking down the third rank defense when the rook is on b3 or g3. Now I have to learn the Chessmaster on 2nd rank defense and the Goldsby position. This ending is hard.

Parag