Greetings,

I just want to share my chess-related frustrations! I have hit a brickwall whereby I can easily defeat the CM opponent known as Berry, but I cannot defeat the next highest rated player named Marius. Even though Berry is rated at 1068, and Marius at 1111, there seems to be a huge gulf in ability seperating the two. Marius is lethal, he seems to always knows the exact right move to make my life miserable and his endgame is often impeccable. He never seems to make a mistake! I know, I know, I have to just keep trying and trying until I improve enough to beat him, but it still can be very frustrating. Bad enough I have to put up with constantly losing to CM Online players, now the low-ranking AI players are piling on. Sheesh!

Actually, there is a pretty big difference in playing level between those two players. I looked at each personality's configuration, and what I found was that although Berry's playing strength setting was actually 2 points higher than Marius's, Berry's randomness setting was 31%, while Marius's was only 20%, and Berry was limited to a search depth of 4, while Marius's max search depth was 99. Also, Berry values pawns at 1.5, but knights and bishops at 3.2, making her more likely to make stupid sacrifices.

To beat Marius, you'll probably need to play more positionally. He doesn't take center control into account at all, and mobility only very little. His piece valuation is kind of messed up too (Knights = 3.5, bishops = 2.5, but rooks still = 5), so you'll be able to take advantage of that. Of course, luck will be a big factor too, since 20% of his moves are completely random .

quote:

Originally posted by c1arinetboy:
Actually, there is a pretty big difference in playing level between those two players. I looked at each personality's configuration, and what I found was that although Berry's playing strength setting was actually 2 points higher than Marius's, Berry's randomness setting was 31%, while Marius's was only 20%, and Berry was limited to a search depth of 4, while Marius's max search depth was 99. Also, Berry values pawns at 1.5, but knights and bishops at 3.2, making her more likely to make stupid sacrifices.

To beat Marius, you'll probably need to play more positionally. He doesn't take center control into account at all, and mobility only very little. His piece valuation is kind of messed up too (Knights = 3.5, bishops = 2.5, but rooks still = 5), so you'll be able to take advantage of that. Of course, luck will be a big factor too, since 20% of his moves are completely random .

Hey, that is interesting. I never really look at the player's settings. I sought of approach them as human players---I take them as they come. But that information can be helpful in my play. Maybe it's time I start peeking at their psych profile? I also find it interesting that Berry and Marius are set-up so differently even though, ratings-wise, they are close. That search depth of 99 for Marius is probably what makes him so tough!

Thanks again!

quote:

Originally posted by ebutaljib:
Maybe his style doesn't suit you. Maybe you can win against another higher rated personality without a problem.

It's worth to look at the settings for each personality before you play it. Then you can adjust your play. For example, if personality values knights much more than bishops, then you don't have to be afraid that it will exchange the knight against the bishop. And if you attack his knight with bishop it will probably move it away.

Of course this "play your opponent and not the board" strategy works only against computer. When playing humans you actually have to play the board and not your opponent.

How does time affect their playing strength? Most of the time, I play with a 30-40 minute time limit for the game (I do this because that is the time control I use for online games). I imagine Marius will be much tougher with 30-40 minutes thinking time, versue 10 seconds per move. Do long time controls inflate their ratings?

Thanks for the help!

Well, theoretically the ratings are actually more accurate with longer time controls. Try playing Chessmaster on 5 second hourglass and you might find suddenly that you are a grandmaster . However, Marius will be much stronger in relation to Berry in a slower game because he will be able to search to a deeper depth--whereas he may have been able to search to a depth of 4 in a given position in a faster time control, which would be the same as Berry, in a slower time control Marius could maybe do a depth of 8, while Berry would still be limited to 4.

Update to the Marius Files:

Okay, I tried modifying Marius by limiting his search depth to 10, reducing his rating to 1036 (BTW: I think it is great that CM10 projects a rating based upon how the player is created!) Guess what? I still lost!
For the heck of it, I tried playing against a higher rated player, in this case, Buddy, rated at 1217, 106 points higher than Marius. Guess what? I won! Easily! As black, no less! So I guess it is true: it isn't so much the rating, as the playing style of the AI that is giving me trouble! Very interesting.

In other news, I am playing in a "Coffee Club" tourney with Lacey, Thorin, Josh-Age 6, Mariah, Adam, and (who else?) Marius. Even though Thorin is the highest player of the bunch, so far he is second to...you guessed it, Marius! I'm telling you, Marius is the Terminator in disguise! He has deliberately deflated his rating! He told me. Well, not really "told me", but I heard him whispering about it in the dark of night, when my PC was shut down. He thought I was sleeping, but I wasn't. Ha! I got to get going now, time for my medication....

quote:

Originally posted by ebutaljib:

quote:

Originally posted by WargamerScott:
(BTW: I think it is great that CM10 projects a rating based upon how the player is created!)

It doesn't. This is his base rating. Every personality has it. The rating that you see are slightly (or not so slighty) increased, depending on your system. Thats why they vary a little. Reboot your computer and open Chessmaster. Remember the rating of the Chessmaster personality. Now close the program, open 5 or 6 other programs (word, outlook, internet explorer, whatever) and start chessmaster. you will see that the rating of chessmaster is much lower (bacouse those programs are eating CPU and RAM from the chessmaster.

With user created personalities (=modified CM personalities) the base rating is always diplayed. It doesn't vary. So when you modified the personality there was a box with a rating. If you wanted you could give a new Marius a rating of 3000 and if you would won you would gain more points as if you won against Chessmaster. But this is only cheating yourself.

I'm a little confused. Marius was rated 1111. My mod, in which I reduced his search depth, displays a rating of 1036. I didn't change anything else when creating the modified player. Nor did I have a bunch of programs running at the time. What happened then?

Marius's base rating is 1036, so that was the number in the little box when you created it, and as ebutaljib said, CMX never adjusts your custom personalities' ratings. It would probably be ok to raise it 50 points or so, because most of the time the ai won't be running at base level.

quote:

Originally posted by c1arinetboy:
Marius's base rating is 1036, so that was the number in the little box when you created it, and as ebutaljib said, CMX never adjusts your custom personalities' ratings. It would probably be ok to raise it 50 points or so, because most of the time the ai won't be running at base level.

I get it. So 1036 is the base rating, but when it shows 1111, that is a reflection of my PC. Got it.

Funny thing... I can beat Lucy with ease, but I can only beat Barry in about 1/6th of the games I play against him.

That would be a good time to analyze your play style, to see why one opponent is so tough for you but the other is not.

On another note, I pitted Marious (1097 on my laptop), against a computer player at 1497, and Marius won with ease (he was ahead the entire game, and checkmated pretty early). I'll keep putting him against higher opponents to see how he does. He is clearly mis-ranked.

Mike

What is chessmaster's rating in standard rating system? I don't like the cmx rating system, the rating they gave you is too high for your strength. I can beat a personality with a rating of 1757 but in real life a 700 player would kick my butt easily.

quote:

Originally posted by mjacobsca:
That would be a good time to analyze your play style, to see why one opponent is so tough for you but the other is not.

On another note, I pitted Marious (1097 on my laptop), against a computer player at 1497, and Marius won with ease (he was ahead the entire game, and checkmated pretty early). I'll keep putting him against higher opponents to see how he does. He is clearly mis-ranked.

Mike

I am really curious to see how your experiment works out. Marius is definitely under-rated. I have since skipped past him and have resumed winning games against opponents who are theoretically stronger than him.

quote:

I can beat a personality with a rating of 1757 but in real life a 700 player would kick my butt easily.

Well, i doubt that it is the case. A real life player that has a rating of 700 rarely sees past his next move and throws some random ones as well in there. You might be able to beat a certain 1757 rated personality but that might just be because of playing styles. Perhaps a lower rated personality would give you some problems (hey, give marius a try we never know !) or a slightly better one as well. Nonetheless, if you beat 1700+ personalities you should be able to compete with 1300-1400 (if not 1500) rated players over a real board.

My experiment continues. I just had Marius beat and opponent around 1560. He then lost to one at 1650, although I was in a hurry, so I turned their game time really low. I'll up it again and see what happens.

Michael

quote:

if you beat 1700+ personalities you should be able to compete with 1300-1400 (if not 1500) rated players over a real board.

Are you sure? I played with a kid last sunday in a one day tournament and his rating is 1339(i mean in real life). He moved really fast it seems to be impossible for me to win.

quote:

A real life player that has a rating of 700 rarely sees past his next move and throws some random ones as well in there.

Well what rating system are you using? A >500 player would have enough knowledge about middle game, end game, and openings. They know what they are doing. Sometimes they do throw random moves but most of the random moves are positive.
I often play 10min game. Does the timelimit affect personalities strength?

quote:

Originally posted by mjacobsca:
My experiment continues. I just had Marius beat and opponent around 1560. He then lost to one at 1650, although I was in a hurry, so I turned their game time really low. I'll up it again and see what happens.

Michael

Based on your results so far, Marius in under-rated by about 400 points!

That makes me feel better! LOL!

quote:

Originally posted by freakssssjoe:

[QUOTE]
Are you sure? I played with a kid last sunday in a one day tournament and his rating is 1339(i mean in real life). He moved really fast it seems to be impossible for me to win.

Some players like to play fast to intimidate their opponents or to also to get them to play fast. As long as you have a long enough time control, if you find that you are playing to his speed, just get up and walk away from the board for a couple of minutes. Then come back and take your time to find the best move. Fast players tend to miss positional posibilities while being good at straightforward tactics.

quote:

Well what rating system are you using? A >500 player would have enough knowledge about middle game, end game, and openings. They know what they are doing. Sometimes they do throw random moves but most of the random moves are positive.
I often play 10min game. Does the timelimit affect personalities strength?

In real life, a player <1000 isn't going to know too much. They tend to blunder pieces, miss combinations, and know absolutely nothing about the endgame. I'm not trying to be cruel or anything, but those tend to be the facts of the situation. And having an USCF rating arount 1400, I'm not too far removed from those individuals.

CMX plays worse with shorter time controls. The longer the time control, the more time it has to think.

Personally, I try not to play anything under 15 minutes.

Hi, everybody! I'm new to this forum

In the following match, I beat Marius with Black after a well_positional game (on my opinion. I built up a stone wall in the middle of the Queen's gambit game. And then to creat a monster knight, which cost White a strong Bishop. Okey, take a look at my game

[Event ""]
[Site ""]
[Date "8-19-2005"]
[Round ""]
[White "Marius"]
[Black "Dandoo"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "oft "]

1. d4 d5
2. c4 c6
3. Nf3 e6
4. Bd2 f5
5. e3 Nf6
6. cxd5 cxd5
7. Bd3 Nc6
8. Bb5 a6
9. Ba4 b5
10. Qc1 Bb7
11. Bc2 Bd6
12. Ng5 Qe7
13. a4 O-O
14. Nf3 Ne4
15. Bxe4 fxe4
16. Kd1 exf3
17. g3 e5
18. Nc3 Nb4
19. dxe5 Nd3
20. axb5 Nxc1
21. Rxc1 Bxe5
22. Nxd5 Bxd5
23. Ke1 Rac8
24. Bc3 Bxc3+
25. Kf1 Bxb2
26. Rd1 Bc4+
27. Kg1 Bxb5
28. h4 Rfd8
29. Rb1 Rc1+
30. Rxc1 Bxc1
31. Kh2 Bxe3
32. Re1 Rd2
33. Kh3 Rxf2
34. Rxe3 Qxe3
35. g4 Rh2+
36. Kxh2 f2
37. h5 f1=Q
38. g5 Qff2+
39. Kh1 Qee1#
0-1

Aha! I'm not going crazy! So glad to hear others with an identical problem to mine.

If playing positionally is the way to beat him, I guess this means a lot of us aren't - I see glimpses of a similar 'human' set of thought processes in this which is pretty interesting.

I lasted 62 moves with Anderssen(2700 base rating)

I drew a game with Lasker(also 2700 BR)

I took a rating test on "follow the masters" and I scored 75/99 which is about 2200.

Yet my real rating is around 1600.

I also have trouble beating Marius, he is a b*tch, don't play him. Play against Josh Age 9 (1600) is a great place to start.

Hi all !

Even if I still think that the ranking of computer's personalities in CMX is sometimes over- (or under-)evaluated, I cannot but agree with ebutaljib. Indeed, I've never lost a game against Marius...

I think he his, in fact, much stronger than Berry, but his positionnal playing is weak ; furthermore, he doesn't seem to know much about pawns-moving, particularly in finals.
(I can post here my rated savegames, if anyone wants to see how reasonnably easy it is to beat Marius. )

I too have lasted more than 50 moves with "ANDERSEN" and "FLOHR".
I too drew a game with "TARTAKOWER" (who, as a great french GM and an extraordinary teacher, is my very "spiritual father" in chessplay).
CMX now rates me as a "Grade A" player ; I'm not sure of the accuracy of this ranking, but I think that Marius should be beaten even by any "Grade B" player ; nevertheless, Marius should be rated between 1100 and 1300 USCF, I think.

Do not hesitate to post your own games/opinions about CMX's personalities ; I still think their ELOs don't exactly correpond to "average human standards" ; don't you ?

-- Steph