MisterNiceGuy wrote:

- But look lets just cut to the chase shall we?
- Welfare harms everyone no matter who it is given to.
- Subsidies and Welfare simply amount to taking money
- from one group in society and arbitrarily giving it
- to someone else. This creates inefficiencies and
- distortions in the economy with the ultimate effect
- of impoverishing everyone. This is why welfare is
- bad no matter whether you are a business or a
- consumer.

How does welfare ultimately impoverish everyone?

The country I live in is getting richer and richer every day and we have an excellent welfare system. I don't use it but I'm happy to pay for it.



*War is Peace* *Freedom is Slavery* *Ignorance is Strength*

V3: Ouch, was that a shot?

I guarantee you that any bill that includes anything to do with upgrading the power system here, will, ultimately, be included in a number of other bills. That is the way business is conducted up there. I didn't always live in Montana, you know.
I want you to show me a way to force them to visit this bill, alone, unemcumbered with any detritis that the rest will demand to add.

If you can come up with a way to make them do this, you will become a very rich, powerful man. And, just remember , it was my idea. I don't mind riding your coat tails.

I agree with your assertion that satisfying special interests is the last thing they should be doing, but that is what they do, on both sides. I was just pointing out the obvious in case there are some of the younger ones watching, they need information too. And, it never hurtsto remind us all of how business is conducted in the "Real" world.

At least, in the "Land Of Oz" where most of those in government reside.


Good repartee:

Leep Out:

Leep wrote:

- V3: Ouch, was that a shot?

Not at all mate. I apologize if it came off that way.

- I guarantee you that any bill that includes anything
- to do with upgrading the power system here, will,
- ultimately, be included in a number of other bills.
- That is the way business is conducted up there. I
- didn't always live in Montana, you know.

I totally agree with you. The manner in which the debate is proceeding on Capital Hill concerning the upgrade to the power grid, there will definitely be plenty of special provisions added into the final draft of the energy bill.

- I want you to show me a way to force them to visit
- this bill, alone, unencumbered with any detritus
- that the rest will demand to add.

There is really no reason to show you Leep. Although, partisanship and pork barrel are usually the norm in Washington, there have been plenty of instances where our lawmakers from both sides of the isle have put aside their differences and special interests in order to pass vital legislation.

P.S. I was unaware that you resided in Montana. A beautiful state indeed. In fact, although I'm an avid skier, I missed the one family outing to the Huntley Lodge at Big Sky due to a prior commitment. If it is any consolation though, I have visited Jackson Hole's Teton Village in your neighboring state of Wyoming a few winters ago.

V3-Dev wrote:

- That is a good question Hornet. You should ask the
- current administration that. After all, millions of
- jobs have been lost in the past couple of years.

ah yes blame the economy on the current president, even if the economy was weakening before Clinton left office. And the fact that the Ship hit the fan after 9/11 was also Bush's Administration's fault.
-
-- If you dont subsidize big businesses how are they
-- going to maintain employement opportunities for the
-- people?
-
- It would appear you are totally unaware of the
- massive profits that oil and gas companies are
- currently raking in. They are the last industries
- that require government subsidies Hornet.

Apearances could be deceiving V3, I neve seen their books so I dont know how much profits and unless you are their accountant you dont either. But one thing is for sure and that is the expenses they must have in order to make profit.
But if the executives salaries is what you are having a problem with. I don't think it would bother you if it were you that was making those salaries.
Bottom line is subsidies gives them motivation to expand their companies thus employing more people.
-






The beatings will stop when morale improves.

Hornet, a publicly traded company by law has to open their books to shareholders, and submit filings to the IRS and SEC. Therefore, considering 99% of all energy companies fall into this category, one can readily obtain data on their profits, expenditures, etc. That said, for many consecutive years now nearly all of the corporations in question have posted huge profits, and are more then capable of expanding their businesses on their own, so a government subsidy is the last thing they require.

MisterNiceGuy wrote:
-
- Even if this were true what difference does it make?
- People who sell booze and music will provide jobs
- will they not? And I do not think drug abusers get
- their money from welfare.

first of MNG when I said rock n roll I didnt mean buying cd's, I was talking about drinking/drugs/partying instead of working hard, getting skills if they need to and improving themselves.

where do you think they get their money from, if they dont work? either they steal it or use their wealfare check.
I have seen first thing what the welfare system does to too many people, neighborhoods and businesses. I once had a guy come to my shop and try to sell me a Snap on Ratchet he had stolen from me on a previous day. He was to high on crack to realize I had my initials etched on it as I do with all my tools. That is another way to get money for drugs. Yes he was on welfare.

- But look lets just cut to the chase shall we?
- Welfare harms everyone no matter who it is given to.

Not nessessarly, many people take advantage of the help and used it to get out of the hole. That is the way it should work and we should'nt accept anything less.

- Subsidies and Welfare simply amount to taking money
- from one group in society and arbitrarily giving it
- to someone else. This creates inefficiencies and
- distortions in the economy with the ultimate effect
- of impoverishing everyone. This is why welfare is
- bad no matter whether you are a business or a
- consumer.

It becomes bad Only if the group we are subsitizing (businesses Included)are abusing it.





The beatings will stop when morale improves.

buccaneer wrote:

- How does welfare ultimately impoverish everyone?

Good question, Hornet listen up.

First of all, Hornet you may be interested to know that redistribution (i.e. via subsidies) are a keystone of socialism so know what you are recommending.

Second, subsidies are the corallary of protectionism. Meaning that it is one way of protecting a weak inefficient business against its more efficient competitors. For example, small farmers may receive subsidies to protect them against large corporate farmers who with their economies of scale, are able to produce more goods at a lower cost. By subsidizing the inefficient farmers funds are sucked away from the efficient farmer and a more expensive product is now offered to the consumer.

Third, subsidies are taken by coercion from you and I [taxpayers]. Not only is this unethical but it prevents us from satisfying our next more urgent need (i.e. there is an opportunity cost involved). For example, if you suppose that your most urgent need was a new pair of shoes but the government taxes the money you were planning to spend. This means not only does the shoe maker lose out on revenue (which he could re-invest in making a superior shoe) you also have to do without your new pair of shoes. Therefore both you and the shoe maker are impoverished and the farmer gains at your expense.

Last, (for the financially inclined) companies engage in what is known as capital budgeting. This means that they have a limited supply of funds with which to invest in a limitless number of projects. Because these funds are scarce a company must only choose the most efficient projects (lowest cost relative to profit) to invest in. If the government now takes the money you were going to invest in shoes and gives it to the farmer, this farmer will be able to invest in projects [new crops] that otherwise he would not have. This is known as malinvestment. Therefore, you have a misallocation of funds and capital, and goods will be produced that have no buyer. This contributes to recessions and a general impoverishment in society.

Buc, if Holland is getting richer this is in spite of rather than because of welfare. If you carry welfare/subsidies through to their final conclusion you will eventually wind up with an economical collapse similar to what happened with the Soviet Union.




"The statesmen will invent cheap lies, putting the blame upon the nation that is attacked, and every man will be glad of those conscience-soothing falsities, and will diligently study them, and refuse to examine any refutations of them; and thus he will by and by convince himself that the war is just, and will thank God for the better sleep he enjoys after this process of grotesque self-deception." - Mark Twain, 1917