I remember reading one time that the Soviet leader, Joseph Stalin was almost killed during the battle of Warsaw (Warszawa) during the Polish-Soviet War of 1919-1921 before he rose to power and is said to have had from then on, an anger toward Poles. How do you think the world could have changed had he died in that battle? Do you think Russia would have acted differently in WW2, do you think less people in general would have been killed, do you think the Katyn massacre would have happened? And how do you think the history of Poland would have changed?

Nice thread because I have to work for school on the subject: Stalin-Hitler . I think that we all needed Stalin because otherwise Russia would be overrun by Hitler's army in 1941. Just bad Stalin was a dictator (the same with Hitler. It would be better if both weren't dictators!)

the world without Stalin,
well i dont think it would have made any diffrence on the WW2, since the Soviets got attacked and they just defended themselfs.
ok maybe without this brutal leader in front there would not have been orders like rape all german femals which they did, more then 10 Million german women got raped after the War.

BUT without Stalin for sure 23 MILLION Soviets would NOT have killed AFTER the war. Thats more people then the Germans killed in WW2 including the jews. Stalin killed his own people with his regime.

I have to disagree with Raccoon, I think without Stalin the Russians would have repelled the German attack better. I think so 'cause after he rose to power he "purified" the army pretty heavy, which actually ment he had almost all of the officers executed: he had at least 30000 officers "arrested" among them were 5 fieldmarchals, almost every army, armycorps and division commander and half of his regiment commanders, so he practically decapitated his army before the war, so bad he almost lost the Finno-russian War. after that he started to release some of the officers he didn't have shot. But before the invasion he was warned by Churchill, his top-spy Richard Sorge but he ignored all those warnings, he ordered that the Red Army wasn't allowed to gather military intelligence, so he was informed very good about the attack and he refused to take action. And after the war started he ordered his troops to simply stand ground, tacticl retreats were not allowed and if a unit who was being surrounded pulled back to a safer position they were executed as traitors, they could only be killed or captured. After the war Stalin even said that the Soviet Union had no POW's so all the Russian soldiers that survived the war in a German POW camp were transported to Goelags in Siberia or they were simply shot as traitors.
So I think Stalin did more bad than good things for his people and the war.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Cpt_Raidergun,

Witout stalin the world wouldve been much better. I am from a country that was under his cruel fist. I COULD NOT DESCRIBE HOW I HATE THAT GEORGIAN devil. All-in-all 40 millinon people were killed due to his reckless, iron fisted, mad rule. If he wouldve die in Warszawa than definetly Trockiej wouldve been the leader after Lenin. Well Trocki was a communist as well but he wasnt as uneducated fool like stalin. Personally he wouldve followed Lenine's communism whivh iS very diferent from the one Stalin followed or made. Communism became dreaded because Stalin made it look bad. Im not a communist for sure, but Lenin's communism wouldve led to a more peaceful(but not fulyl peacful nation) and TRUST me the russian economy wouldnt have declined in the 20's and 30's as under Stalin. And Hitler might no even attack the USSR as soon. but war was unevitable.
I wonder what the world would look like now

Well, I don't know much about Stalin and that's what makes this thread interesting for me. When I had to find information about Stalin and Hitler I found that the Sovjet regime killed 61,000,000 people (no warcasualties!) and the Nazi regime "only" 21,000,000 (but this is only the genocide which started from 1941).

Its more like 40 000 000 dead due to Soviet leadership. And 11 000 000 for German's

Yes, I'm going to have to agree that he was a bad leader, because he had people killed for no reason, like maybe someone once know a person that killed someone in the government, but hasn't talked to them in years, would be killed. And you say you are from a country that was under his cruel fist, what country is that by the way?

quote:

Originally posted by Raccoon_2:
Nice thread because I have to work for school on the subject: Stalin-Hitler . I think that we all needed Stalin because otherwise Russia would be overrun by Hitler's army in 1941. Just bad Stalin was a dictator (the same with Hitler. It would be better if both weren't dictators!)

Thanks, I have been thinking about this topic for a long time now a finally chose to post it hope it helps you in school.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: comedy_watcher,

Well Stalin wasn't only a bad leader but a hartless monster. Right now I'm reading a book on Stalingrad and in the introduction it mentioned something that shows what kind of hartless, stonecold guy he was. Apparently his son got captured by the Germans and the Germans tried to arrange an exchange. The deal would be Stalin's son against Fieldmarchal von Paulus, commander of the 6th army, captured at Stalingrad. Stalin's rely:"I would never exchange a private against a fieldmarchal". End of discussion for him.

Im from Hungary.
And I still cant describe my hatred towards that Sick Barbar.

I also feel hatred for Stalin, but I know it can't be anything close to what you feel and I respect that being that I have been living in the United States all my life and don't know half of the things you probably know about.

Well, I would say you Hungarians don't like Communism in general because of the way you guys have acted over the years (Budapest uprising is a good example). This makes me wonder, why did you guys except National Socialism, where you forced to do so or did your country men actually see something in it?

This is rather off topic, but I happen to be part Hungarian of all things. My family supposedly came from the town of Polgár (if you ever heard of it) back in the early 1900's. What part are you from?

quote:

Originally posted by Cpt_Raidergun:
Well Stalin wasn't only a bad leader but a hartless monster. Right now I'm reading a book on Stalingrad and in the introduction it mentioned something that shows what kind of hartless, stonecold guy he was. Apparently his son got captured by the Germans and the Germans tried to arrange an exchange. The deal would be Stalin's son against Fieldmarchal von Paulus, commander of the 6th army, captured at Stalingrad. Stalin's rely:"I would never exchange a private against a fieldmarchal". End of discussion for him.

Yea I heard about that, I also heard that he said something to the effect of I have no son, when asked to consider. But the thing is I am not sure what I would have done in that position, I mean sure it would be the morally right thing to trade and get your son back, but then again it could effect the war effort in a negative way for Russia. After all his words are correct, his son was a private and the other man was a field marshall so it would have been a very lopsided trade. though I would have used different words to justify my choice.

And I agree with you about him being a heartless monster, he had mass amounts of people killed for no reason at all or sent to do hard labor (maybe a small amount of those people really did something, but most of them were suspects or random people). And the most disturbing thing is, he managed to keep such a positive public image of himself, that the people had no idea he was behind all of this and some people in the labor camps, actually though Stalin would save them. Can't believe, people over here in the United States think he was a good leader because he won against the Nazis.

I believe his son was captured around '44. By that time von Paulus must have been a wreck after all he was held responsable for the loss of the 6th Army, which had 300000 soldiers in '42, barely 91000 survived the hell of Stalingrad and in the Goelags mortality rate amongst soldiers was 90%. And in '44 he also found out his son was killed near Anzio. So I would say he basicly wasn't capable at the time to contribute anything to the german war effort. And even if he hadn't suffered that much the war was practicaly lost at the time.

quote:

And the most disturbing thing is, he managed to keep such a positive public image of himself, that the people had no idea he was behind all of this and some people in the labor camps, actually though Stalin would save them.

that's what they the wonders of propaganda, plus anyone suspecting anything about his true nature simply disapeared, no questions asked. they were locked away safely in Siberia, not alot of people knew about those camps since Siberia isn't exactly Russia's most popular holiday destination. And if the family asked any questions they disapeared as well or were presented a "confession" of triason.

Oh Polgar!
Yeah. Im from Miskolc which is North of Polgar .
Why did we accept National Socialism? We didnt.
As soon as Germany occupied Hungary in 1944 Regent Horthy (who was a great leader) was exiled and the Arrow Cross was set up as puppet.
After the war we had 2 yrs of democracy but in 1948 the iron fist of USSR hit, and the early fifties were a bloody terrible period for Hungaryan ppl. Thus came the uprising. But after that the Communism wasnt that harsh anymore. It also sad that how super powers dealt with Central Europe as just nobody's realy. But WHAT THE HECK now communism is over the economy is staggering.
Communism was like keeping a lion in a cage, which grew up there but the lion wanted to be free and live free. Now the lion was freed in late 1980's but the lion did not know how to live free, thus it is strugling to stay alive and find food

I've done some (little) research and found out Stalin's son was a lieutenant.

EDIT:
Can you people give me some information (like internet links or books), the same information from which you got your opinions on Stalin. I need it for my scription on Hitler and Stalin.

Thanx, Rccn

I got most of my info by just letting Google search on "Josef Stalin" and from a book "De hel van Stalingrad" by Walsh S. Some good sites are:
http://www.moreorless.au.com/killers/stalin.html
http://www.rjgeib.com/thoughts/stalin/stalin.html (this one shows very good what kind of sick mind he was and is a metaphore for how he controlled his people)

I hope it helps

quote:

Originally posted by Cpt_Raidergun:
I believe his son was captured around '44. By that time von Paulus must have been a wreck after all he was held responsable for the loss of the 6th Army, which had 300000 soldiers in '42, barely 91000 survived the hell of Stalingrad and in the Goelags mortality rate amongst soldiers was 90%. And in '44 he also found out his son was killed near Anzio. So I would say he basicly wasn't capable at the time to contribute anything to the german war effort. And even if he hadn't suffered that much the war was practicaly lost at the time.

Hey sorry for the mistake, I don't know a lot about that Field Marshall. Anyway, nice post.

quote:

Originally posted by gustave.jany:
Oh Polgar!
Yeah. Im from Miskolc which is North of Polgar .
Why did we accept National Socialism? We didnt.
As soon as Germany occupied Hungary in 1944 Regent Horthy (who was a great leader) was exiled and the Arrow Cross was set up as puppet.
After the war we had 2 yrs of democracy but in 1948 the iron fist of USSR hit, and the early fifties were a bloody terrible period for Hungaryan ppl. Thus came the uprising. But after that the Communism wasnt that harsh anymore. It also sad that how super powers dealt with Central Europe as just nobody's realy. But WHAT THE HECK now communism is over the economy is staggering.
Communism was like keeping a lion in a cage, which grew up there but the lion wanted to be free and live free. Now the lion was freed in late 1980's but the lion did not know how to live free, thus it is strugling to stay alive and find food

Quick question about Polgar, I heard people say several times that it means something, if it does can you tell me what it means?

Is your country using Euros yet, or still using Forints? Because I haven't heard about it in a while.

And about National Socialism, I have read more than once that you guys accepted it over Marxism, guess the people that wrote that stuff, need to look into it more. Then again, there is a lot of false information going around about a lot of other countries like Poland and Finland, during the war.

And for you Racoon_2, here is a page that you can use as a source. It tells you some important things about him. Its even in multiple languages (if you need them).
English:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalin

German:
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josef_Stalin

Dutch:
http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jozef_Stalin

Polish:
http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%B3zef_Stalin

Hungarian(short):
http://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joszif_Szt%C3%A1lin

These are just a few of the languages, but if you need to do it in a certain language, I figured I would save you some time.

Polgar= Citizen
weird town name really.
ANd no we dont use Euros yet. Sometime later I hope.
Thats true. National Socialism was more accepted than Stalinism. Personnally I would choose national socialism, rather than stalinism.
And I admire Finlands bravery in WW2. They fought like lions, true heroes. And I as a Hungarian can proudly say that we are the same blood.

Thx comedy_watcher . Dutch, English and German will do

I gotta agree with you on the Fins Gustave, I mean if you think about it. It almost insane that a relatively small and military seen pretty weak country could have repelled the enormous Red army for about 5 months, personnaly I even think they could have forced a russian retreat if they only had some more men and material. The only way the Russian defeated the Fins was by overwhelming them. This shows again that Stalin only puts his little friends in command of his armies, however incompetent they were.