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When looking back as a non-participant in the production of the Faith Hope and Charity movie, I was wondering what was learnt from the experience and if something of that magnitude could be achieved again by our tiny IL2 movie makers community.
I was watching the movie again with more experienced eyes and ears and again realized the professionalism, quality and perfection of the production. The effort in man-hours from all the roll players together must have been in the thousands.  What makes it more of an achievement is that the members of the production team were spread all over the globe with different cultures and I presume most have never met face-to-face. When looking on the different amateur movie sites (You Tube, Blip, etc) you hardly see any real quality and good productions in any genres. That made me to realize the fantastic amount of skills and experience between the members of our forum community. These skills are not just limited to "nice aircraft flying and shooting" stuff but in the broader sense of film making.  After the FH&C movie there seems to be a recession in motivation and a bit of disappointment between some of the participants?  My questions: 1)What was learnt from the FH&C exercise; with the production, what worked well and what can be improved? (Team set-up, different roles, methods, communication, "marketing", monetary issues, etc.)  2)Is it true that the role players who produced the movie are a bit disappointed with the aftermath? If so why?  3)Is there a slight chance of maybe the team be willing to go this route again and produce a movie again? under what conditions?  4)I think the existing talent in our community could get forged together again to produce something of grandeur scale with the ultimate goal to have it been screened on TV. This is a huge hill but as enthusiastic and active moviemakers this could really give you the sense of achievement. Do you think this is possible?  I have some ideas that I would like to share but it is important to first have some answers to the above.... This message has been edited. Last edited by: biltongbru, |
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Good Post, I cant speak for the others but let me answer those questions from my perspective.
We were constrained to pass huge files to each other, this meant the quality of the final render was reduced. I would suggest if this was ever done again a means of transferring these files by post should be considered. Apart from that I learnt a lot about music production thanks to expert tutoring from MrVH. He learnt a lot about 3D Smax We also found that you CAN collaborate on a production even though we were continents apart. We all did our requested work and there was very little shirking. We all learnt from each other. That was where the fun was.
Not true, I am and always will be proud of the film. I was disappointed it never won best film at the Euro awards, but expected it deep inside as they never consider our genre a serious one.
When hell freezes over
Possible yes, probable no. Unless the film got aired on some open access channel. Those questions aside, the greatest achievement was to actually stay friends throughout the production. We began to feel under strain at the very end, but despite some minor fall outs we did stay together for the two years it took to make the production. That for me was by far the greatest achievement. Those guys will always hold my respect, all of them. It was a pleasure to know and work with all of them.
Not true. Some of us have met face to face (after the production was completed). I believe Joe has some photos of us together at the awards. I am sure he has posted those pictures here somewhere. In summary. What did I learn for the FH&C exercise ? When I was asked to join the crew at the beginning (actually I was not asked at first, but I offered and others dropped out), when my mind said YES, my mouth should have said NO!!!! The amount of work, and the time it took out of my life, was far too much. That is why probably no one will do this again. This message has been edited. Last edited by: RAF-Blackace, |
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Thanks RAF-Blackace for such a good and honest reply; It shows character when someone commits within a group and stuck to the end even if the task grossly escalates!!
I wish Joe-90, Gl2, Mystic Puma, Monty, Falcon, Doolittle would also reply to this thread because it is important for the new members of this forum to have some pointers if a community project is tackled,. ever again... This message has been edited. Last edited by: biltongbru, |
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I will do, mate. I have been thinking about answers for a day or two.
But I've also been thinking about just how frank I should be. |
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looking forward to this (hope that it is positive  ) |
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No I have never been able to meet any of my fellow team mates. Like to one day 
For me...I was the intern here more than anything else. I only made one movie before (which was terrible!  ).The other film was Maxwellsmart's film "Purple Heart Alley" I help produces it, and did all historical research on that mission on 10 October 1943. I also help on some SFX sounds. Basically I was the quite the rookie here. anyway I had to wait awhile before I could start adding any SFX sound effects to this film. As Blackace already alluded to we were constrain in passing very big files between us once they're ready for me. Wasn't sure what I was going to do yet but I wanted to add real sounds as much as possible that was going into each and every scene. Blackace and JRJacob's had given me there collections of many different types of SFX ambience's sounds and that really help me out. I also decided to purchase some additional aircraft sounds if I could ever find them. Most of these aircraft sounds were mostly Vintage WWII fighters and propeller-driven transports. They did have some WWI type sounds but not many as I like to have so it was huge challenge for me to find all the right sounds I needed to make this movie better than any other IL-2 movie to date. 
Method of communication between us was mostly e-mails and from our forum's threads.
Nope. I'm proud of what we accomplish here. It was a lot of hard work and very long hours. The only disappointment for me was the many errors I had made. Things like...I should have done this better and that better...should of added more bass sound to the Stearman Bi-plane in place of the P-11C...things like that.
Good question. We all learned a lot from each other so that I will always treasure that for life. I got to worked with the BEST of BEST IL-2 film maker's around period! I don't think this team would ever do it again. However never say never especially when BoB comes out sometime down the road.
Maybe... like Blackace has mention it was indeed a pleasure to know and work with each and every one my teammates. Hope that answer some your questions biltongbru.  Best Regards  |
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Thanks Falcon for the reply; always positive from your side and I agree: all you guys can really be proud of the achievement! I still don't know how you guys achieved the clear and crisp sounds even if 5 or more were overlaid between music and SFX. The "sound engineering" is very good and I would say on par and/or better than many/most TV shows.
This message has been edited. Last edited by: biltongbru, |
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Is it true that the role players who produced the movie are a bit disappointed with the aftermath?
In no way whatsoever! I am very proud of what we all produced, and very pleased at the impact that the film has had. Is there a slight chance of maybe the team be willing to go this route again and produce a movie again? Absolutely none! Although we are all immensely proud of the film, there was a lot of pain involved in making it that none of us want to go through again. It is testament to all the team that we stuck it out to the very end, even though we were at each other's throats more than once. I think the existing talent in our community could get forged together again to produce something of grandeur scale with the ultimate goal to have it been screened on TV. There is great talent in this community, and there is a possibility that a small team could go down the route of producing for TV. The large team that was Wingmen Productions or any team like it, could never operate at a professional level (professional in its true sense of the word – making a living doing a job). Producing for TV would need a much more focussed team with clear job descriptions and a manager with authority. It would need a marketing miracle wonder person. It would also need all the legal issues sorted out and agreed with the interested party. That's a huge task. Did you know that even one of the most successful machinima productions, Male Rest Room Etiquette, was refused permission to be aired on several channels – see here. What was learnt from the FH&C exercise? First and foremost, the greatest lesson for many of us was that men with great dedication will put troubles and personal hurt to one side for the sake of the greater good of the movie. Never have I experienced a greater feeling of "the show must go on". I salute all in the team for allowing me to be a part, and putting up with me for whenever I was a pain. We also learned that you can't put a dozen or more creative men together and foster a respect for teamwork and each other's feelings using only forums and email. We were stupidly naive on that front. Many of us had previous experience of virtual teams breaking up. We should have known that we were at risk. Just because we all shared a common interest and seemed to be good guys did not mean that we would not fall out. You need face to face human contact for that kind of team to get on. Another epic movie, Bloodspell, did just that by having all the team in the same location to do all the work and it was a major success. Nevertheless, we did still pull through. Only one casualty was lost during the process and has never been since. Some others from the original team did not make it to the end, but they weren't casualties, they just didn't realise the size of the venture and bowed out gracefully. I am very pleased that I have undertaken other projects with members of the team, and very successfully, and with no fall outs. These have been with only 2 or 3 of us, and the group dynamics of 2 or 3 are much easier to manage. There was one mistake I made recently in working with another person, not from Wingmen Productions, who I hadn't worked with before and was sure we would get along, but after many months of getting bogged down we had to call it a day. This has been a major setback in my current project. For me, I will be very careful about any future team projects. Therefore, the largest lesson from FH&C has been about making teams work. Let me share some of the essentials I think make an effective team for producing a virtual filmmaking team: Teams should be kept small. There has to be one head honcho, who has overall control, has the power to make decisions and everyone on the team respects this authority. This is most likely the Director. Screenwriter. Without a good story, a movie will be nothing apart from a stream of visuals. These may be amazing, stylish and creative visuals but without a solid story behind them they are empty. The screenwriter creates the foundation on which the movie is made. Once in production, the screenplay may have to be adapted to suit what is actually possible to film. Similar tasks should not be split among several people. This was a mistake in FH&C that happened because we thought that if we all do a bit of filming or editing then the job could be done a lot faster. What happened mostly was many men working at cross purposes and all being extremely critical of each other's work. That is a recipe for disaster. We also made the choice to have for each scene, one man doing the filming, and one man editing the other's work. This was a mistake in my opinion, but only with the benefit of hindsight. We all mostly came to that conclusion as well but too late to change anything. In some cases, the filming and editing was done by one person due to some leaving the project and these scenes were easier to produce. The lesson then is to have only one person doing the shooting and editing. He should also be willing to have his work reviewed and changed. This is different to the 'Hollywood' filmmaking process, but that's because of the core differences in the production methods. Special effects. Someone who really knows how to add these to enhance the images. A final editor is a good idea. This, I think, worked well with FH&C, and gave one person the ability to make all the final tweaks and changes that added the polish to the product. A score writer. Music is the magic that lifts a movie. We can use music already produced, but that is constraining in that you have to film to match the music. It should be the other way around. Sound Effects. Another critical ingredient. Actors. Dialogue is the best way to tell a story along with visuals. Acting must be good as any bad acting can very easily ruin a scene. Sound mixer. The man who puts the music, sound effects and acting together. Other roles – skinners, pilots, mission builders, artists. All these roles could be shared quite effectively amongst a small team, or even one person. The bigger the team gets, the more difficult the group dynamics, and the more crucial the role of the head honcho. When I started with this team, I was one of the more inexperienced movie makers. I thought I knew the basics. It soon became apparent that I knew very little indeed and I am very appreciative of all the guys in the team who kept me on the track to learning the business for myself. Make no mistake - there is a lot to learn! I couldn't even begin to explain what I learned about the technicalities of filmmaking, and the art of cinematography. I was very fortunate to be in the company of men who knew so much. Books have been written on these topics, and I can only suggest that if you want to learn, do your research. I certainly couldn't fit it all into one thread! For sure, a lot of those who are experienced will do their best with the time they have to help new comers by answering questions in this forum. Some will even offer suggestions if they expect they will be listened to and acted upon. At the end of the day, however, there is no shortcut to making a great movie. My wish is that those who have the gift will take good care of it and do the necessary work for that gift to flourish – the world has been made a better place, and will be made even better yet, from the power of movies.
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First off, thank you for the kind words. It's nice to know there is some interest in the behind-the-scenes production history. As BA said, we can only answer from our individual perspectives, but here's mine:
1)What was learnt from the FH&C exercise; with the production, what worked well and what can be improved? (Team set-up, different roles, methods, communication, "marketing", monetary issues, etc.) I learned too much to list completely here. It really was a great educational experience, and those who were on board from start to finish all left better filmmakers from having been involved. Since I was the "producer," my job entailed a lot of the administrative stuff. I had to divide up the workload and assign job roles to everyone participating. I was also responsible for creating the workflow and laying the ground rules for how things would be run. Perhaps the most important thing I learned about a project like this is how to (try to) keep everyone involved motivated. In the real world, money is the motivating factor. People get paid for their work, and their motivation to work hard and respond to feedback is, at the end of the day, money. Since there was no paycheck here, the motivation for this project was simply the fun of being involved and anticipating the reception the film would have. To keep a project like this alive, everyone has to be having fun or it just isn't going to work. The problems that we had with the production came when we (and I'm to blame) did things that diminished the fun factor for people. I devised a workflow in which people would do their respective work and then the group would critique it. "Group consensus" would determine whether work was accepted or sent back to be redone. I learned that it's just no fun for individual filmmakers if they feel like they're realizing someone else's creative dreams and not their own. The people involved have to feel like they have creative control over their piece of the total pie, and if they lose that feeling, then the fun decreases or even disappears completely. That's when the problems start. Ultimately, the ground rules changed from "group consensus rules" to a system in which everyone was free to critique work, but the person doing it had the final say in whether they would redo the work or not. If we had started off with that system, things would have gone more smoothly. Live and learn. Joe mentioned the cinematographer/editor roles should be with the same person. I guess I would agree with that. This project changed quite a bit from its initial concept over the two years of production. It was originally intended to be a small project involving as many from the IL-2 filmmaking community as we could scrape together. Somewhere along the way, it morphed into something much bigger. As people had more and more of their time and energy invested, the stakes were raised for all involved, and that contributed to some of the problems I mentioned earlier. But back to what Joe was saying about the cinematographer and editor roles resting with the same person. When this started, I wanted to keep the involvement to a minimum for everyone [*barely contained laughter from the Wingmen crew*]. I didn't want to overburden people with having to both film AND edit their video. Also, since filming and editing is usually handled by two separate people in the 'real' world, I thought it would be fun to try that with this community film project. Originally, every scene had a different director and editor. By the end of the project, that original system had changed, and many roles had been reassigned. Ultimately, only one scene in the film had a separate director and editor. With every other scene, the same person who was assigned to direct the scene was also in charge of editing it. Which way is best? I certainly think combining the roles is the easiest way, but I think there can be value in having a different editor. However, I don't think most people are interersted in editing other people's captured video, and most directors seem to want to edit their own captures. For that reason, keeping them together, as Joe said and as we did with most scenes, is probably the best way to go. One final bit of wisdom anyone contemplating a project like this should keep in mind is that every page of a properly formatted screenplay roughly translates into one minute of film. I knew that rule going in but thought this would be different for some reason. Well, it wasn't. Anyone hoping to make something on this scale should take a look at our screenplay (available at MrVH's Web site--check my sig links) and see what our screenplay looks like. BTW, ours is NOT a properly formatted screenplay (another topic, and one too long to explain here). Our screenplay is more condensed than a formatted screenplay that would be used in the industry, but it can give you an idea of what you're in for. It's very easy to bite off more than you can chew. We almost did. 2)Is it true that the role players who produced the movie are a bit disappointed with the aftermath? If so why? If by "aftermath" you mean the reception from this community, then I was absolutely not disappointed. I think FH&C was very well received here, and we're all proud to have been involved in it. Truth be told, however, I was hoping that it might generate a little more attention in the larger machinima world. I think most in the group would probably agree with that. 3)Is there a slight chance of maybe the team be willing to go this route again and produce a movie again? under what conditions? I would gladly work with any of the original crew again. That said, I think it's unlikely that the original Wingmen Productions team would make another movie on this scale again. We all got on board (including me) thinking this would be a three- or four-month commitment. When it grew into something more than that, some people (very understandably) were not able to continue. I'm sure they were disappointed they were not able to stay on board the full two years, but I can't blame anyone who couldn't, given how this was originally advertised by yours truly. The rest of us soldiered on to finish what we had started. The more time and energy we had invested, the more we wanted our efforts to amount to a finished project. Had we known from the start what we were getting ourselves into, FH&C never would have been made. There were some rocky roads we had to cross (see comments above), and I was not able to correct those problems as soon as they should have been corrected. That was my fault, although I was inventing the wheel as I was going, so that's my excuse. If we were to do this again, everyone has a MUCH better idea of what it would entail, and we probably could avoid 90% of the problems we had the first time.But the thing is, I don't believe any of us, having already made FH&C, are looking to spend another two years of our lives (or even a year) on a film for which we're not going to get paid. FH&C was a great experience, but we've now "been there, done that." I'm sure all of us have projects of our own that we would like to do down the road, and most would probably rather dedicate their energies to personal projects rather than attempting something like this again. 4)I think the existing talent in our community could get forged together again to produce something of grandeur scale with the ultimate goal to have it been screened on TV. This is a huge hill but as enthusiastic and active moviemakers this could really give you the sense of achievement. Do you think this is possible? I think it's much more likely that another group (perhaps with some WP people) will be formed from the community here that will go on to create something like FH&C. For the record, I have no interest in participating in another film project like this again for the foreseeable future, so it would have to take place without my involvement. But the current filmmaking competition has attracted the attention of a number of people who were not even in this community when FH&C started. Those people might have the interest in working on a big project like this. If anyone does attempt this, I would be happy to post longer comments on lessons learned and recommendations on how to set things up. That would have to be the extent of my involvement, though. In closing, I would just say that I am very proud to have worked with all of the guys on the Wingmen Productions team. There were some rough times, but I wouldn't trade the experience for anything. Anyone can get on someone else's nerves a little over two years--especially when the workload seems to have no end in sight--but that doesn't change the fact that they are a great group of guys. I was pleasantly surprised to see just how much talent is out there, and I look forward to seeing the personal projects of the WP crew in the future. Eventually, I hope to be adding some of my own. This message has been edited. Last edited by: GL2, ~~~~~ Learn how to make your own IL-2 movies here: Dart's Filmmaking Tutorial and Machinima Movie Theatre Download the film "Faith, Hope and Charity": DOWNLOAD PAGE Find download links to the best IL-2 films here:Flight Sim Machinima |
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Joe and GL2:
Thank you very much for your decent, comprehensive and proper feedback to this forum on your experience of the FH&C saga. These are valuable stuff for any possible future community project of this nature. This kind of info you don't necessary find in books. Again you guys, with your posts you have shown the thoroughness which is also evident in the movie. When this thread becomes "threaded out", I will try to make a short summary list of your recommendations as per your postings. Again thanks for your time in giving us these reply's |
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I need some time to respond with detailed comments....have a few things going on at the moment..
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MrVH's perspective would also be very valuable. He probably put more hours into the project than anyone else and wore many hats.
~~~~~ Learn how to make your own IL-2 movies here: Dart's Filmmaking Tutorial and Machinima Movie Theatre Download the film "Faith, Hope and Charity": DOWNLOAD PAGE Find download links to the best IL-2 films here:Flight Sim Machinima |
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The other Wingmen have provided most of the ˜lessons-learned" so no need to repeat those. I'll add just a few thoughts of my own.
1. Being scattered worldwide is a huge challenge to a coordinated team effort. We all know that on the internet...in forum posts and ˜blog's and in Emails...misunderstandings, mis-readings, misinterpretations are sometimes unavoidable, if not common. These can result in friction, to say the least. For any similar Group effort in the future I would Strongly recommend that weekly or bi-weekly "Teamspeak" (or similar real-time voice interface) sessions be scheduled and conducted so that team members can at least discuss and explain matters verbally, where real-time dialogue can occur and nuance can be expressed/heard and personalities/idiosyncrasies better understood and where intent can be much more effectively conveyed. Admittedly, it would be impossible that ALL members could be present at ALL such group sessions, but a quorum would be likely at most, if not all. 2. A major additional positive effect of such ˜real-time' group sessions would be the enhanced focus on, and success in meeting, deadlines. Call it peer pressure...no one wants to show up in real life at a meeting unprepared or empty-handed. Making thse movies is a Hobby, obviously...and our real world lives take precedence...However, if one person finds he is falling behind in meeting his established deadlines, it is sometimes too easy to take the course of ˜Silence', to simply drop out of the picture (no pun intended), to be ˜absent' from the Forums, etc, for extended durations. It's a lot harder to face the music in a group teamspeak session.... At times during the FH&C production effort, some original 'team' members became increasingly silent, absent, mysteriously unresponsive to status requests or queries on deadlines missed, etc...eventually dropping completely out of the project, but having had a negative 'drag' on the Group effort for too long a perod of time. 3. To the maximum extent possible, a single leader of the Team must be given final decision-making authority. Period. Management solely by consensus doesn't work.
Not at all. FH&C is a fantastic movie which was received with tremendous acclaim throughout the FlightSim community. I have collected more than 150 forum posts (various Forums) expressing words of great praise and admiration for the Movie and the Team that created it. The only disappointment is that the world of "machinima" is restricted and set in its ways...so rewards/awards are few and far between for movies such as FH&C...and it has been clear that FH&C did not get a fair shake in ˜machinima' competitions and reviews. The current Flight Sim Movies website was renamed from Flight Sim Machinima in recognition of that fact of reality.
Not the Wingmen Team as it was constituted, though individual Wingmen have gone off and worked in support of each other on other projects...sometimes 'contributing' to a new movie, sometimes working together on other projects such as the ongoing IL2 Movie Competition, the ˜management' of the Flight Sim Movies website, etc...
I think it is possible, yes. I think SOW:BofB is going to offer greatly advanced source material and tools/options which would offer the possibility of producing such a TV-Quality production. IL2, even as currently being MOD'ed, does not have the graphics for such a TV-product, and it would be a waste of time to go forward with a major effort of this type using IL2 series as the base. SOW:BofB is another story entirely. Speaking of "Story"...that would be the first task of your hypothetical new team...to write the Story. Most IL2 movies, past and present, fail because they have no decent story...only Action and eye candy. Obviously, SOW:BofB is going to be tailor-made for (restricted to) a BofB-related story...with not much room for deviation from that theme initially. I hear that SOW:BofB is going to be released in Two Weeks, so you'd best get writing ASAP. If you were to lead the way in getting a new group together, I think you can be assured that some of us old Wingmen would be available to at least offer some advice, specific advice, as you take your initial organizational steps and establishment of technical procedures/standards, etc. Good luck! |
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Thanks Doolittle also for your good reply, I think if a project with the scale of FH&C will ever be done again then your points are very much valid...thanks
I don't know who the source is, but my guess is still 1 year to go for the release date. |
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I can't add much to what has already been said, each who were involved in FH&C and have posted a response I generally agree with one way or another.
Would I get involved again in a community movie, I think so but it would have to be at the level of my involvement with FH&C which was to direct and produce scene 1 & 2 and edit scene 9. I found this level of input enough for such a massive movie. I think the only way I would get involved in more detail if the movie were 15 minutes or less. A great topic and a great read form the guys whom pulled it all together Cheers Monty-Dan |
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