I saw a show a while back on the History Channel, I believe it was. All about subs in WWII.
I almost fell out of my chair when I heard an old German captain say: "there are no atheists on a submarine. You put one on my boat during a depth charge attack, and you see how fast he is on his knees praying to his God."


Damn that just cracks me up...

weakling.... doing that won't make it any better or save you.

When you are in that position you will know what is right and I promise you'll be on your knees.

This is similar to the saying that never is a man so tall as when he stoops to help a child. Never is a man so strong as when he admits that he cannot save himself and looks to God as the only help he has left.

The U-Boat captain was a wise man, not by book learning, but by watching people who talked like you and acted like men.

During a journey of faith, I actually met once a week with a group of atheist. It made for some good debate. They all admit nothing is 100% for them. In fact, they come to that conclusion because they're human. I guess all people suffer some doubt regardless. Most will say that great fear or death they may seek God, but that doesn't negate the fact that they're atheist, just acting on human doubt.

I don't allow atheist on my submarine, I want men that can cuss and pray with equal fervor.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: MWolfe1963,

Atheism is a conscious choice made by a human mind that, as history has shown time and again, is flawed in it's decision making process. Atheism is not a relization of the facts but, rather, a conscious choice to deny them.
If an atheist says, there is no God, that is his personal choice. By the time he realizes his mistake, well, it's usually too late to go back and say, "But, I didn't know!" By that time, his choice will have an unfortunately profound and everlasting effect on his denial of the facts.
If I choose to believe the wind doesn't exist because I know I can't see it, who is to blame when I fail to take cover during the tornado and lose my life as a result? They see the effects of the wind, as most others do, but deny because they can't see it, or see it's source.
Atheism is a conscious choice, nothing more, nothing less. Atheism has proven to be nothing else over the ages. It has no great following, organized membership center or notable leader and, it is certainly not followed by any majority, even among science. It's merely a choice.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: WernherVonTrapp,

Religion is also a concious choice, used for many 'evil' purposes as well.

Nope.. I'll never be on my knees.. Some people just have stronger conviction of will power, and the will to live.

quote:

Religion is also a concious choice, used for many 'evil' purposes as well.

Religion is not a choice, religions exist. One must choose a religion to follow.
And I won't try to convince you nor argue, either way. Religion is something created by man, for man. I don't follow religions either. I follow Christ.

Whatever !!... I'm not going to argue about it either - Religion and Politics, in the same boat, are not worth arguing about.

I used to collect buttons years ago,my fav was "JESUS IS COMING...LOOK BUSY":>:>:>

It's been a lonnnggg time.

I think in the end it's a matter of faith regardless of what you believe. For both sides, logic, science, reason only go so far, that's why one side can't ever get the other to change it's mind.

When they say 'you must have faith' is when they've lost the power of logical and mental reasoning.

Not to mention, everything else that's bloody normal..

Sorry couldn't help myself there - everyone to their own
(crusifix smiley)

As you can see..
I wouldn't bat an eyelid about taking on the 'world'

Depends on what it's about really..

When i was a kid growing up, my dad said some things that acutaly stuck in my thick skull. One of those things was this:

"There's two things you don't ever talk about amongst friends. Politics and Religion."

Over time, i saw the wisdom in this, and I've never seen my Dad talk about either. Wise man.

quote:

Over time, i saw the wisdom in this

Thats right. Someone is gonna say something silly and then Tambor will have to get medieval on them.

As far as no atheist in foxholes or submarines, well that goes back to the fact that most people, even atheists were raised with some type of religion and fearing death, with emotions running high, that basic foundation of religion that they were indoctrinated in as a younger person rears its head.Sort of a "well if there is a big guy in the sky, I better make amends in just case" This is a natural human thing, getting your affairs in order so to speak.


Truth is no one can explain everything.As far as I am concerned, I take the route with logic and given how religion often defies, okay it basically spits in the face of logic, I tend to go with logic.

What I do know we have the right to believe what we want, I have friends who believe and attend church and those who do not.As long as people keep it to themselves and do not try to install it in the government or force it down anyones throat, all is well.

I for one, am never going to force it down someone's throat, after all God chose not to, who am I to take on that job? However, I will not keep it to myself, as it is part and parcel of who I am. I think it's important to demonstrate that a reasonable person can make a logical and conscious choice that God exists and to demonstrate that choice as one which does not require one to check his brain at the door.

After all, someone has to counter all the religious nut cases out there and show that in no way do they invalidate religion, any more than a conspiracy nut case trying to misuse science and logic can invalidate the fact that a hijacked jet impacted the Pentagon, causing the damage and loss of life there. And by misusing science and logic, he does not discredit them. Why do we accept that misuse of religion is unique in discrediting religion? Is it because a drowning man will clutch at anything to remain afloat?

As far as religion being used for evil, if automobiles, hydroelectric dams, fire, water, wind, texting on cell-phones and medicine kill people, why should religion be anything different. Misuse of anything accomplishes nothing in proving the thing itself is evil. Its just a convenient way to express prejudice.

The most flagrant misuse of religion has been the effort to force people who are not believers to comply with the requirements of that religion, where those requirements are not a part of the general morality of the population. Forcing businesses to close on Sunday would be a prime example. There is plenty of factual basis outside religion to debate abortion, but many issues, like blue laws and dress codes are strictly religious and not moral.

You can't force people to be good. There are laws against murder, but people still murder. Law doesn't stop crime. If it is ineffective there, and only serves to punish, why do we think we can change people's hearts and minds by force?

All excellence of any kind is strictly voluntary. It cannot be forced. It cannot be required. It is strictly the outpouring of happy, secure people who believe that they make the lives of others and themselves more fulfilling if they make that unnecessary extra effort, over and above survival level. That extra effort is excellence. Excellence is ALWAYS voluntary.

Now it's always fun for me to demonstrate beyond a shadow of a doubt that belief in logic is also faith. Any idiot can perceive that gravity pulls harder on heavy objects than light ones. Now logically if the pull of gravity is stronger on the heavy object, it must fall faster. It's child's play to make up a nice mathematical description where the velocity an object falls is proportional to its weight. Aristotle did just such a thing, and for a thousand years the logic was so unassailable nobody challenged it. Millions of smart, educated people, including graduates of the most distinguished universities were taught and believed this fallacy all their lives. They were as smart and worldly as you and I!

Why would they question it? The logic is unassailable and logic is truth, not requiring faith, right? WRONG! An idiot too stupid to believe logic actually built a series of inclined planes and experimentally proved that all objects fall at the same rate regardless of weight. This was so illogical that he was publicly attacked both by "scientists" and religious authorities. Finally he demonstrated the truth by dropping two different objects from the top of the Leaning Tower of Pisa. This man was Galileo Galilei.

As any particle physicist can tell you, the universe is not ruled by logic. Truth either is or is not. Logic is just a tool we use to force the universe into patterns we can "understand," over-generalizations of reality that help us to function. Our faith in logic is strong, but it is often misplaced. Logic, like religion, can lead us seriously astray.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: RockinRobbins,

There is one thing about this forums which never fail to surprise me. It is the common sense and all-round respect with which skippers treat each other.

If I shall add my two eurocents...

I was raised in totalitarian state, where God and faith in Him was something bad, altough more or less tolerated by state officials. (Later we learned churches were pretty much under control of communists)

My parents were not in faith either, but they teached me how the world spins and what is good and what is bad. You can call me and Atheist, but I do not feel like one. Atheists deny any existence of Power Above, I do not.
I am trying to live my life in name of good. My parents gave me and idea what is good and what is wrong and I am trying to be the good one. I help those who are in need and fight those who are bad. For that I am not a Christian, because I do not love everyone and I do not regret it.

Besides that, I feel the Christianity was one of a mad sect back from first to 17th century. Something similar to Islam these days, Christianity as was done by the men for the men went through its dark ages when killings in name of God were quite usual (witch-hunt, jew pogroms, Crusades).
Christianity today is very calm religion, however I miss one thing. I really miss a word "we have been wrong" from the Catholic Church. They were wrong and many people suffered.
The Church was able to rule the Old World for quite a long time, returning what was left of Romanian Empire back in Dark Age of Medival Times, getting its power through monopoly in education and monopoly in knowledge and idea what the world is.
Now, in modern times, the Church is not that influential...due to lack of power over mankind and due to understanding of the world by common people. We are not afraid of lightnings, we know raising crops does not have anything in common with Sunday Mass. We are not afraid of future, and we are less prone to false prophets of any kind. We are free, believers and non-believers together.

For that, I only reckon bad and good people. I do not care whether one is Atheist, praise Jesus or Allah...there are bad ones among any crowd.

Islam will go the same way, one day people will start realise they will fare better then they do today if they pacify their own extremeist...(like Hagana got rid of Irgun extremist in 1948) and the faith they have will become more of a passion for good than the law.


However, there are new religions emerging, not calling themselves religions and yet still powerful.
A shining example is the CO2 religion, with its Apocalypse (ocean rise), Primary Sin (CO2 emmisions), Redemption (giving up that and spendig a lot of money doing that), Salvation (the temperature will not raise and everyone will be happy...maybe happy, certainly poor), and with false and greedy prophets (Al Gore and his swimming pool).
Eko-extremists are as dangerous as extremist Islamic suicide bombers, if not worse. Air turbines decimating stability of the power grid, fotovoltaic plants in non sunny areas subsidized by silly state, calls for nucelar energy ban from NGO's.

Again we see how people with different opinion are bashed in media (incineration is not fashionable anymore), how children's brains are washed with very silly eko-propaganda...and we see how common sense suffers all around.

That's what I am afraid of, that a good idea like Christianity, Islam, Communism or Ecology is turned into a club for few to rule the world and live a nice life while everyone else suffers.

This is what happens when common sense gives way to Bigger Goal.