Yeah you also seem to include URU into the Myst series as if it was a part of the story. You have to remember it isn't. Rather Rand said it was more of a side story to the series and has no real connection with the story (yeesha aside). I don't have anything against 3D and I think that the node-to-node feature in myst 5 will appeal to most of those who prefer that style. Also you do have to remember, the videos aren't the final product. They still have to fix a few things and polish it up. But ultimately in the end I believe it will be well accepted.

quote:

Originally posted by Ian [Atrus]:
it's going to be different from a previous title they liked, when Myst had always been about being different.

Yeah, back when Myst came out in 1993, there were hardly any CD-ROM drives in houses, so it was a big risk to release a game on CD-ROM.

quote:

Also, the Myst series wasn't even supposed to be a series: Cyan didn't even want to add "the sequel to Myst" in the Riven title, because they didn't want the words "Myst" to brand their games.

Without trying to sound like I think I have a fan-base if anyone has ever read any of my other responses you'd know that my tiresome mantra is "Riven is the alpha and the omega" - - which is why Exile and especially Revelation were such disappointments to me. But if you stop to think about it, getting into a mindset that says "they've ruined the series with this game or that" is a bit futile; each game has really been an independent entity.

Hi Mowog...thanks for the response....this one is for you.

I appreciate your perspective on the evolution of CYAN itself by looking at alternative games & CYAN's longing to break out of itself to use 3D. I'm not trying to discount that evolution because I think you have an interesting point there...however if I simply look at the majority of the MYST games & look at what dominates its inherent experience (regardless if CYAN wanted to use something else)...at the end of the day what they used or "approved" for the majority of MYST games was the "traditional method." So to use the quote "with great power comes great responsibility" I believe because the MYST series has predominantly used the "traditional" approach... providing a distinctive look, feel & story as the experience of the MYST series...in addition to becoming a tremendous success with this approach ...it had/has a responsibility to maintain that approach. Everyone else would say that "they are fulfilling that responsibility & what the heck am I talking about!" Obviously they can do whatever they want...and they have & will...but my point has always been that even if the 3D URU style is/was possible for MYST...it still may not be the best choice for all the reasons I'm mentioning. This "style" does NOT measure up in my mind as being "true" to MYST. Even if the story does fit! Even if the MYST makers say otherwise!

So let's hypothesize another way...what if the original MYST had been rendered in 3D simulation as well as RIVEN, EXILE & REVELATION? Honestly...I don't think I would even have played them...or at the very least if I played them...I would MAYBE like them but certainly not grow to LOVE them the way I have come to experience & love the MYST series. Difficult to hypothesize that way for sure...but nonetheless I "know myself" enough to make a good guess. Which leads me to respond to your 2nd interesting point on exploration...here's my perspective on that:

You mention: "I would much prefer to investigate every single detail that catches my attention, not just the significant bits that a node-oriented navigation wishes me to see..."

For me I look at this in many ways but here's the main one...
I believe you can still examine your surroundings closely....if you stay still in just one "rendering" if you will...you could stare at it for hours (particularly in EXILE & REVELATION) & still not pick up on all the detail. Now are you allowed to zoom in as close as you would like?...NO... I suppose not unless the game allows for that closer zoom...but that has never bothered me...if anything... I feel part of the challenge was/is to be able to decipher a "zoom in" position. I view each transition as a treasure...like an incredible painting coming to life that I am to patiently "walk" through & "examine" or I might miss something...and these incredible "paintings" constitute all the incredible MYST worlds.
The appeal of MYST being "REAL" is what is important to me. I would define real here as: "real" people actually being ecountered in the incrediblly "real" graphic imagery down to the "creatures" that also pass as real. There are other measurements as well but to keep the major distinctions I'll leave it to those. While URU may be "Real Time" it just doesn't feel "real" to me nor will MYST V...there's no question about it.

Finally in response to your REVELATION experience as well as it not being a CYAN product.

If CYAN created MYST... then to me REVELATION has to be a "product of" CYAN...especially seeing how as soon as REVELATION loads up... the FIRST thing you see & hear is the original CYAN logo & muscial jingle... then of course followed by seeing & hearing Rand Miller reveal a deeper story-line that is clearly continued from the original MYST with regards to Sirrus & Achenar. If CYAN simply approved the making of REVELATION & Rand Miller actually plays a role in the game than...(& in this particular game Rand plays a much larger one in regards to both seeing & hearing him) in my mind... it is "a product of" CYAN.

It's unfortunate that you probably won't finish REVELATION...I don't see see the interface as clumsy nor the puzzles as "obscure." Certainly they're different & challenging but that's precisely what I love about them. I always looked at the frustration or seemingly "dead end" that I undoubtedly WILL encounter in playing a MYST game (especially in RIVEN!) as a challenge. A challenge to go back...look at it again & try to figure things out....that's part of the discipline & teachings of the MYST games...by not giving up & by pushing through it...this has helped me in any number of ways in "real life" as well! Those attributes are also a major part of the realistic feel by utilizing the "traditional" approach. Becoming disoriented for example & or lost... is a very real occurrence...it forces you to use your spatial skills. I don't know about you...but after completing any of the MYST games...especially RIVEN...I think patting yourself on the back is in order!
GO GIVE REVELATION ANOTHER TRY BUDDY! The major thing for me that I keep in mind about the MYST games especially after being "taught" the art...is that there is always a clue or answer within the game... you just have to look deep enough to find it. It's what separates the men from the boys! (Not calling you a boy either Mowong...I don't mean it like that).
WHEW...thanks for the "challenge!"

This message has been edited. Last edited by: neo...1,

when uru came out i was very upset it was in real-time 3D, but I coped and now I think its one of the better games in the series, not coming close to Riven though. the one thing I do miss in real-time 3D is: lighting! plain and simple, you cant make the dynamic lighting from Riven or Even the first Myst game with any of today’s graphics cards, Even with NVIDIA’s transform and lighting engines its not doable. Non the less there’s more then that, that make up a good "myst game" and in the hands of Cyan i think they can pull it off.

This one is for you Ian (ATRUS)...(By the way to help underline where I am coming from...I think your Avatar image (for your profile) looks "fake" like many other things in URU...if you had a picture of the REAL Atrus (Rand Miller) in your profile...that would come across as more realistic!!!

Well to each his own...I'm glad you like URU & will undoubtedly like MYST V. Oddly enough...one of the few things I did like about URU was being able to use the 1st person perspective...so you and I just won't see eye to eye!

There is no way in my mind that REVELATION is the least MYST-like...I think the "traditional" style was at its best here in addition to seeing "real" people & experiencing your surroundings. A truly wonderful accomplishment...and it will make for a "Grand Finale" in my mind.

Lastly..."loathe" is a strong word for me....I don't "loathe" URU... It just doesn't appeal to me...nor would I include it as a "True" MYST game...again in my mind.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: neo...1,

This one is for you "jetuserX"

Not sure if you are speaking to me here...but I think you certainly have a point with the separation of the story. I think there are ways to include it into the overall story-line as many people have...kind of fuse them together...like looking with more detail into the civilization of the D'ni as well as the torch being passed to Yeesha...to name only two.
I have tried to do this...to actually include URU as a part of the MYST series (including story)...and have been unsuccessful...I don't think it has its place as a "true" MYST game. So that would include its story as well. When I try to stay a little more positive about URU it seems the only way I can do that is by attempting to look at its story. So I think we're basically saying the same thing....and yes I believe that MYST V will be well accepted too. I'm going to buy it...but you obviously know how I'm going to feel about it!

This one is for you larsschermer...

I certainly share in your disappointment in URU...but unfortunately my disappointment continues...

I think you have mentioned a FANTASTIC issue with the lighting. I couldn't agree more with you as to its overall powerful effect in the MYST series...which is also seen being used even "better" (in my opinion) in EXILE & REVELATION. Unbelievable really. I don't think that MYST V will pull it off though...just as URU is lacking entirely in its "realistic" feel (again in my opinion)...even if they utilize the lighting at its best... I don't feel the realtime 3D engine will provide an adequate lighting effect as seen in the other series & just won't come across as "real" to me...

That said...I have saved a few "screen shots" from MYST V & looking at them as "wallpaper" the use of lighting is pretty solid...but it's one thing as "wallpaper" and another to actually experience it as a game.

Certainly there is more that makes up a good MYST game...but all those other elements within the "traditional" framework at least for MYST...is how they work best.

This one is for you "monsieurdavid"...

No...I did not know your mantra has been RIVEN to be the "Alpha & the Omega." I come super close to fully agreeing with you on that... but I will just have to say that I am inclined to agree with you.

For me to consider something to be the "Alpha" it has to be the beginning...the original. So I'll have to say with that in mind...that the original MYST is the catalyst or "Alpha" for all the other MYST series games that follow.

If you read some of my other responses...I did mention that if I had to choose my favorite...I am torn between choosing RIVEN & REVELATION. I do not think that any of the other games match RIVEN'S intensity, dynamicism & complexity. After completeing RIVEN...you feel like you're a genius...because the game itself is pure genius. The only reason I am torn from choosing it is because of its accomplishments integrated into REVELATION. The refinement I mention in the "traditional" style game-play is remarkable...I love it. I find/found it to be extremely absorbing & had not been this challenged since RIVEN. Also... being able to see the incredible introduction & all the actors involved as well as the "touch & feel" experience as you move through the game....it was just beautiful. SO these are the basic reasons I am torn...there are, of course, more reasons that I have in favor of both. Maybe we can talk about this more in another discussion if you would like to.

Obviously I have stated how I'm not the one holding the strings when it comes to MYST...so I know it is futile....but I think it's important to express the different perspectives & experiences people have had when it comes to the series. URU doesn't fit into a "true" MYST game for me so in my mind I just don't include it...that way the series doesn't get ruined for me! Certainly there is an independent entity to each game...but MYST is its own identity & the others belong to it...so in a way I guess I am attempting to protect that "MYST" identity as I have come to experience it. By not including URU & MYST V that does the trick for me! Certainly most everyone else will disagree.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: neo...1,

I for one like every "Myst" game, including URU. Each one is, in itself, a seperate game as well as being connected in some way to all the others. Sure, I have a favorite, as I am sure everyone does. I look forward to Myst 5 and am sure it will be everything I expect it to be.

People vary in how much interactivity they like in a game, and how much they want it to be, for want of a better word "3D". Some people like a like of interactivity, and some - less. I don't know any other way to put it.

The thing about 2D is that you don't get as many different views of anything, up close, far away, different angles, that sort of thing. You can look at a screenshot for as long as you want, and look at different details. Even if you stay in one spot in a museum, looking at a painting perhaps, you look at different parts of a painting. But, you only get to look at what is presented in the painting, no different views. In a 2D games, you get some different views, but it's the same idea. No matter how committed 2D designers are to giving you different views, you'll have less views of the world than with 3D.

I think that, a couple of years ago, there was a big differece in the level of detail you could see, between 2D and 3D. Now, I'd say it's less so, particularly for the way Cyan designs games. For want of a better word, with Cycan games, I'll use the word "photorealistic", though, of course, no one does that. Sometimes, if you design something differently from "photorealistic" it actually looks more realistic. Photos are also a model of the real world (an abstraction), but, I digress.

For me, I cannot see any reason for not going with 3D, given the way that Cyan designs games. They want a world that looks so, for want of a better word "real" that you can walk around in it, as if you "were there".

I'd contrast this with both Syberia 1 and 2. Benoit Sokal came from the graphic novel world (comics, he's a creator, he does both story and pictures, unlike, for example, Neil Gaimon, who wrote the story for the Sandman series, but didn't do the graphics). Benoit Sokal is the designer for Syberia 1 and Syberia 2. The story and artwork designs come from him and he has approval over everything else in the game.

Here's a link for Syberia 2 and Syberia

http://syberia2-game.com/syberia2/english/

http://www.microids.com/game.aspx?id=30

I'm not sure if the Microids link will work (for Syberia). If not, go on the Microids site, and click on games. There's a section for Syberia. The nifty site for Syberia is now gone.

Anyway, it's not that Benoit Sokal isn't making 3D images, but they aren't particularly photorealistic. When you look at them, it looks as if it's important that the games looks like someone drew them. They do have 3D models and they add some special effects to the games (those footprints in the snow were nice), but it's not the same. When I'm in the Syberia games, I feel like I'm in the middle of an animated graphic novel. It's also linear - Benoit Sokal has a story to tell, and he wants you to experience it. It would be rather wonderful if that phenomenal style of Syberia 1 and 2 could be translated to a 3D engine, but I can see how that's not really their intent.

Now I love both the Myst series games, and Syberia 1 and 2, but I think the experience is different. In the Myst series games, it seems to me that there is more of an attempt to create a world where there's a simluation of you walking around in the world. You can attempt to do that in 2D (the recent Myst Revelation, a very good game I like a lot), but I think it's just seems more like a world you are walking around in - if you do it in 3D.

Hi Deirdre_1...

I'm glad you like every MYST game including URU enjoy MYST V!

Neo, I hope you do not think that my post was intended to malign anyone for their likes/dislikes. Everyone has their own opinion and rightly so. We all have different tastes. I simply meant that for me I tend to view the Myst games as 5 single games, soon to be 6, and can see many things from each game that are good and unique to each game. Also each game does have things that I don't particularly care for but overall can be overlooked due to the good parts and qualities.

I always respect others opinions and did not in any way mean to step or downplay yours. If I gave you that impression then I am truely sorry. It was not intended. If I am reading something into your post that isn't there then please accept my apology for that.

Hi mszv...

Thank you for the links to Syberia...I guess I'm not familiar with many of the other games out there....Syberia 1 & 2 being two of them....I'll comment on the imagery I viewed from your links momentarily...

I think you are hitting on the point here that the interactivity certainly does vary from person to person. Well said...there really isn't any other way to put it.

When it comes to MYST for me...I'll take the "less" number of views as you put it for the more realistic feel anyday. To someone else perhaps they feel the 3D is more realistic for the reasons you mention...I just don't see it that way.

Certainly with regards to the amount of detail in 3D & 2D... BOTH have increased in their presenation & BOTH have changed for the better. CYAN may be the best at utilizing 3D... I just feel they should utilize it with anything other than the MYST series. URU & now MYST V seem like they are completely separate from the other MYST games to me. Or said another way...when it gets down to using both approaches (3D/2D) for the "single entity" of MYST...I don't think it is a successful mixture for MYST... even if everyone loves it (sounds weird I know). Again...namely because 4 of the 5 MYST games have come from using the "traditional" approach....as far as I'm concerned it's 4 out of 4....personally I don't really include URU.

I think CYAN should certainly go for it & I'm sure they will..they will most likely do incredible things with their accomplishments...but they should save it for something else! To me the MYST series becomes tainted by mixing up the appraoches within the same "entity" of MYST. They may want that better 3D world to walk around in...which is a wonderful goal...but when I "walk around" in the other MYST games...the experience is vastly different & profoundly more gratifying when using the "traditional" style.

Now on to Syberia. Looks like a very interesting game....I viewed several of the screen shots...many were beautiful. I think you had an interesting insight when you said:
"When you look at them, it looks as if it's important that the games look like someone drew them..."
I don't think anything is wrong with that! If it is highly realistic & can be done in a similar fashion to REVELATION let's say...sounds like something I would definitely buy & enjoy. 3D just puts me off...it comes across to "video gamish" (if that makes any sense) or childish as I mentioned in another part of the discussion forum.. I don't like seeing the character walking around nor seeing any "simulated" characters or "hopping" creatures for that matter. Even with the first person perspective it still doesn't do it for me.

So hey...if it seems like more of a world you're walking around in via 3D & you'd prefer that approach...no worries...you're gonna' get it... so at least someone will be happy! I just feel the realism more in the "traditional" style approach...REVELATION was incredibly realistic & am glad we share favor in it...I think if REVELATION used the 3D "URU" style... it would have been pretty bad. I was so happy to see it completed in the "traditional" style...you have no idea how much! Sorry for sounding like a broken record everybody!
Thanks for listening....

This message has been edited. Last edited by: neo...1,

Deirdre_1
I hope you don't take this the wrong way but you're getting a little paranoid... Thank you for thinking of my feelings....I wasn't offended in the slightest way by anything you said...I enjoyed your brief comment & know where you are coming from. I respect others views as well... as you'd probably know by reading all my responses from the start of this discussion forum. You'll also see that most people responding to me...basically everyone... is not sharing my view...which is great! Yes great! It teaches me more the more people disagree with me! So it's not like anything you said was anywhere near offensive! No worries Deirdre_1 & certainly no need for an apology OK!? Anything you want to say go ahead & say it! Everytime someone contributes to this discussion forum it's wonderful!

This message has been edited. Last edited by: neo...1,

I could careless if its 2d or 3d or just pictures all over the place. Its a myst game, its done by Cyan. nuff said

AHHH the burden of genius....

To continue a thought that mszv touched on, I think too much emphasis is placed on things being "realistic" and "photo-real". In fact, given the constraints of CGI, striving for realism is just asking for a trip into the uncanny valley. really good CG games and animation, like any other animation, tend to focus more on believability than realism. What I mean by this is that even in the original Myst, with as quirky and far-out as some of the landscapes and devices looked and behaved, the whole thing was internally consistent and presented the illusion of reality, rather than reality itself. Some people actually dislike Riven to a degree because it focused on being too realistic, and they feel that some of the "magic" of the original game was lost with that move.

The difficulty these days is that, with so many other games striving for (and often times widely missing) total realism, to release a game that has the same visual style and quality as Myst did would be silly and akin to market suicide. Nobody would buy it. I think in this respect the move to realtime imagery is a clever one, because it places constraints on what you can do in the game much like the constraints present during Myst's development. The challenges are slightly different, but ultimately it's a question of how to overcome the restrictions of the technology to give the illusion of a real place. The slightly "cartoony" - to use your term, neo - environments are, to an extent, the result of taking Myst's surrealism and trying to layer it with high-resolution textures and geometry. Now, it may just be because I really enjoy the slightly exaggerated scenery and brilliant color palette in Myst, or it may just be because I've had this idea of believability being king with realism a distant second objective in creating CG artwork drilled into my brain at school for two years, but I'm much more attracted to End of Ages than most other realtime games, and I think the imagery in EoA, while technically inferior to what's in Riven, Exile, and Revelation, is very much appropriate for a Myst game.

I also don't think pre-rendered photo-real images are a necessary staple for a good game - much less a good Myst game... the sheer bulk of really, horrendously, even terrifically BAD adventure games that have tried to echo Myst's success are a bit of a testament to that . There are examples of this in every industry, but I still firmly believe it's the content and not the delivery medium that ultimately determines the quality of the story and the experience. It's why I like Cyan for pushing the boundaries into realtime, and it's why I have a great deal of respect for Pixar for doing what nobody else in the film industry will do... make a traditional, hand-drawn animated feature film (they've actually started a 2D animation department).

As a side note, to anyone who thinks you can't get dramatic lighting and really *great* scenes from a realtime game, I suggest checking out some of the entries (and especially the winners) in the Golden KI photo competition on DPWR. Even I've been surprised by the quality of some of the entries.

Take a look in "from myst to Riven" page 72. The top chute is still dramatic, but compared to the final shot, its dull, and that’s about the range a modern-day graphics card can render.
I'm not saying that Plasma is better then prerender or wise versa, its just not possible to generate prerendered lighting effects in a real-time 3D engine, with today’s technology.

Regarding detail, you might be able to walk around an object in a 3D engine, but all the details will be lost as a consequence of lowpolymodeling. personally I think pre render gives far more detail, then Realtime3D, but that’s just me.

Now however we discuss this, we wont change the outcome, Myst V will be in 3D, end of story. I think it will be a good game nontheless

I dunno if you can really call it low poly modeling anymore these days... the polycounts in realMYST were at least what they were in the original pre-rendered version, and I shudder to think about the insanity of the wireframes in Teledahn and Gahreesen... and from the looks of things, EoA is even *more* poly-dense...

Plus, a lot of the detail that might get lost because the geometry isn't as complex as it would be in pre-rendered images doesn't mean you can't make up for it in other ways. Bump maps, displacement maps, and well-painted textures can cover a multitude of simplicity if done well. There's also DirectX 9 pixel shaders that can mimic the glare effects from Riven, though we could get into a whole other debate on whether Cyan will actually be using them .

Fortunately, there's a way to show off the changes (and advancements) in the images from Myst to EoA thanks to the seemingly ubiquitous presence of Atrus' prison on K'veer:

In Myst
In realMYST