Just really need to get this off my chest & see if anyone else feels the way I do on this...
I don't want to discount the history & detail of Uru but all the other MYST games are far more superior & enjoyable to me. Take a couple years if you need to "MYST MAKERS" but don't give me the last MYST game ever in a similar form of Uru. This is going to be like when George Lucas gave us the horrible Episode I & Jar Jar binks after 10 years of a sound trilogy....only sooner.
The look, feel, stunning realism, puzzles, gorgeous music, intricate sounds, backgrounds, creatures & characters PERFORM INFINITELY BETTER in the structure of the original MYST games. URU failed not because people couldn't play it on-line together the way it was hoped but because ultimately Uru was nothing like its predecessors & certainly nothing like Revelation (which I believe is the ultimate refinement of the original ideas & structure thus far). Yeah sure, URU is filled with history & further detail for us MYST nuts...but am I the only one who thinks it belongs completely separate from the other series?
I can be far more patient & disciplined in playing the other MYST games...I actually look forward to the challenge! Even long after completing them I love knowing that I can load them up in a moment & walk through them again with enjoyment. There's something special about them...every step taken is treasured...... but when it comes to Uru that feeling is exceedingly underprovided... & after seeing that teaser for MYST V in the "Uru" style... I am enormously disappointed & border-line disgusted.
I don't really care at this point what Rand Miller is saying about MYST V being finished the way it should be & not to worry...to trust the story & such in his interviews....he was saying similar things when Uru was in the works. Unless I hear something like: "we're going to ditch the 'Uru style' idea... take a year or two & develop the final installment of MYST the TRUE WAY it should be...including having HIM in there making a final appearence...it's gonna fall short. This is NO way to end such a powerfully sophisticated & wonderful series RAND!
Even with the so-called top-of-the line graphics, even with the story....URU style is NOT MYST style. They are like night & day. MYST V won't be able to touch Revelation or Exile or Riven or even the 1st Myst. Uru just doesn't fit in with the others no matter how hard it has tried & neither will this MYST V unfortunately. It would have been better to just end it with Revelation & not get my hopes up for a grand finale in the form of a childish Uru game. I will of course try my best to see the good in MYST V like I did with Uru...but I already know...ESPECIALLY after seeing that "Trailer Trash" that it's too late. At best it will be fun but it won't satisfy or fulfill like the others....I hope I'm wrong but its not likely.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: neo...1,

Don't judge the game by the trailer. Marketing has a long history of completely missing the point. I would suggest going to Gamespot and watching the in-game footage (or watch the high-res quicktime copies available on Mysterium.ch) before completely discounting the game out of hand.

Also, I feel I should point out that a lot of the problems with Uru were precisely because it was originally targeted at multiplayer, long-term storytelling, and that's not what it ended up as, so naturally it's going to have a different tone and style than the other Myst games, and because the online game failed, what's left is a bunch of multiplayer puzzles jury-rigged to work in single-player form, some of which worked better than others. Yes, End of Ages is also built in realtime 3D, and yes, at least a few of the Ages were originally slated for Uru Live. However, these Ages did not, for the most part, get very far into development before Live was cancelled, so the puzzles and interactivity aren't as locked-down as they were in, say, Path of the Shell. Uru was also not *supposed* to be like Myst, so I'm not entirely sure how that complaint carries over... it's not like they were trying to do another Myst game and failed to hit the mark. They were doing something else in the same universe, which apparently people didn't like as much, so they're going back one last time to do an actual Myst game with End of Ages to wrap everything up... how it's presented is really just the tip of the iceberg. There's puzzles, interactivity, interface, and story to consider.

However, if you're convinced that without pre-rendered images, End of Ages is doomed to failure, feel free to stop yelling and not buy the game, because it's already nearly finished, and trust me, nobody's going to turn the ship around and go back to pre-rendered graphics now. They've spent the past 18 months building these worlds to be as dynamic and detailed as possible, and some of the environments and puzzle designs would be very difficult if not impossible to pull off without the benefit of realtime graphics. Cyan has also spent a great deal of time, effort, and money gearing the studio up for realtime graphics over the past 8 years, largely because of Uru's development, and just slamming on he brakes and going back to a pre-rendered development pipeline is just not feasible at this point.

Still, if you actually do still have an open mind about the game, I'll re-iterate: the E3 trailer is a marketing-driven tool aimed at getting the attention of people in the midst of an over-crowded, insanely noisy exhibition hall. It's not aimed at the fans... they're pretty sure we're going to buy it anyway, so the trailer is targeting people who are less familiar with the series. That, and the majority of the content wasn't even taken from the engine itself (the whole introductory sequence with the bug, the guy, and the creature were done by Ubi). If you would like to see what the game actually looks like (especially in motion, since the E3 trailer doesn't have many prolonged clips), check out the in-game footage from Gamestop I mentioned earlier.

Thanks for the response...I see you clearly have a more "open mind" than I am willing to have on this. Obviously they won't go back...nor do I expect them to...that was just part of my frustration in expressing my feelings of disappointment. " Revelation as far as I'm concerned will be the final installment unless someone decides differently & returns to the original gaming presentation.
I am quite familiar with the failings of Uru and how it was originally designed to be a multi-player game. I know it wasn't "supposed" to be like MYST and I also knew while I was writing the "complaint" that it would not "carry over" or change anything. It was done to express my feelings of frustration in this regard. Hey, if you like Uru & the complete chronicles & include them into your love for the MYST series then I'm happy for you. I wish I could share those feelings. For me... the style & feeling of the original MYST, Riven, Exile & Revelation (which again I believe Revelation to be the ultimate refinement & evolution of the original style/ideas) although are similar in a structural presentation/transition... they each bring their very own distinctive feeling to the MYST series that I experience on a different level. Uru to me is certainly different, has its own way & feeling...but also so different that even if its inherent flaws were "fixed" & catered to a single player it still would not have measured up because of its simulation....& so the same will go for MYST V.
Now I know there are puzzles, interfaces, story & interactions to consider as you stated, (I live for those things) but I feel all those critical elements within a "Revelation Style" or anything but "Uru Style" will go the extra mile for me. An interaction just isn't the same without seeing Atrus "live" or Catherine or a sinister character plotting something...and neither will be all the other realistic forms of touch & operation.
I'd also just like to say that I wasn't yelling...& I'm not yelling.... at least not YET!
I know no one is forcing me to buy the game...that's not the issue...I will wind up buying it anyways. Similar to being a Star Wars fan... I still bought Episode I & will watch it again... no matter how much I didn't like it. The real issue here is that I am such an "Orthodox" MYST fan & I believe there is a considerable degree of disappointment to express/share & discuss with others....which is precisely what we are doing & hopefully will continue to do. Lastly... just an important reminder that I am expressing my perspective on this in regards to the "Doomed to failure" comment. C'mon... I'm not naive...I know there will be countless others who will buy it & enjoy it...but for me I know it will fall short on a number of levels & not give back the way the other MYST games can. Like I said before I hope I'm wrong...but I don't think so...
Thanks for listening & I will be sure to check out the in-game footage.

so firstly let me get this straight. you are discounting myst V purely because it is built in a 3D engine?

i also like the pre-rendered photo-realistic look of the other myst games and would have prefered myst V to be the same (although having nodes was a problem in parts of revelation ie the water chaneling). to me the bigger concern is the fact that some of the ages are left over from URU. however, like Alamnat i am a bit more open minded considering there are other new ages plus the whole story is made as a myst game, unlike URU.

i must confess i never played URU. i have played all 4 from the main series and loved them all. but i fear my reception of URU would be much like neo's in that it's a multi player game made into a single player game at the last minute. and, of course, it's not a real myst game.

i also don't like the idea of animated characters, but again it doesn't make my dismiss the game as no good.

also, it's not really "uru style". it is 3D and based on the same engine but i think it will be 1st person (?) and also including the option of point and click style.

in summary, i, too, am annoyed about some of the style changes due in myst V, but i still have high hopes it will be a fitting end to the myst series.

edit: just had a look at some of that in game footage you posted, Alamnat. looks pretty good to me. fairly myst-looking. you can tell they've used motion capture for the characters, too - looks good. perhaps the changover to 3D will be a good thing. oh btw, wasn't myst iv originally going to be 3D? back when dreamforge were working on it?

This message has been edited. Last edited by: thewebb,

There is some debate in the adventure game community (many of whom are nothing if not very traditiona/conservative in their views of adventure games) about the use of 3D in adventure games. So, you aren't alone.

My opinion - well, I think 3D is the way to go. It's also what Cyan does. Riven was the last 2D game they did, and they did that was years ago. If Cyan is the one to end the series (and I think that's right, they started it) - then what we will get is a 3D game, since that's what they do.

I think it's also a smart decision. I don't see how Myst V will be able to attract new players if it's done using 2D. Not that I didn't like how Myst IV looked (I did), but 3D is my favorite. I love the freedom of movement it gives you, and how you can look at whatever you want. To me, it's great for world exploring.

OK...first of all...I have just come from viewing all the in-game footage as well as watching the trailer for a second time. Unfortuntaely it is just as I suspected...extremely similar to Uru's look & feel. It is almost worse in the respect that it appears that there are going to be more overgrown, unrealistic, ridiculous insect/creatures hopping about... which is the fulfillment of the foreshadowing of sounds heard in Uru as well as seen at the end of Uru. UM...I don't know about others who have viewed the in-game footage but strangely it feels like a passive version of DOOM. ALso...in my frustration, admittedly, I did kind of wish it was a little more like doom so that I could take out a few of those bouncing creatures (regardless if they are friendly or not). Absolutely disappointed in the characters, look & interaction structure of the game...again very similar to Uru. I would imagine there is just going to be more character/creature/story involvement etc. within this "Uru framework."
Now I suppose I should be positive here for a moment...the worlds seem vast, detailed & involved... incorporating the great MYST sounds that we are all acccustomed to & I'm confident the music will be wonderful as well as the story.
In response to you "thewebb"...yes I guess I am discounting Myst V because of how it is going to run. Even with a great story-line, great puzzles & vast worlds which I'm sure it will have....it still won't match MYST, RIVEN, EXILE & REVELATION in my book. It will be separate in my mind. The way those worlds,stories & characters are encountered/experienced are miles apart from how Uru is & how Myst V will be.
That said...yes I will buy the game...yes I will complete it...yes I will attempt to enjoy it....yes I will buy the soundtrack...but I know how the game will wind up leaving me in the end.
Just a note as to my "credence" if you will... as well as my respect for & involvement in the MYST games...I have read the book of Atrus, the book of Ti'ana & the book of D'ni...I have played the complete chronicles as well as all the other MYST games...I've been a fan from the start. My hope is that "The end has not yet been written" for the Myst series with MYST V....I would very much like to see a MYST VI in the "orthodox style" of MYST, RIVEN, EXILE & certainly REVELATION to redeem this disappointment. It would have been enough for me if MYST V was going to be like the other games apart from Uru...that's what I was expecting! It would have also been enough, although disappointing, if Revelation was the grand finale. If this is truly the end of the MYST series then in my book Revelation is the grand finale regardless of what is "revealed" in Myst V.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: neo...1,

Just noticed the response from MSV. Thanks for the response. 3D may be what CYAN does... but I'm also looking at what CYAN HAS done...meaning:
4 out of 5 of the MYST games have been built upon the "traditional" MYST style...Uru is the only one to break away & now MYST V will follow. Still, with those stats (soon to be 4 out of 6)the success & failures will speak for themselves. For me the original style, from actual people being in the game to look, feel & story experience are what made MYST what it was & is today. 3D may be the way to go for other games...who knows maybe even ALL OTHER games... but give me that profound sense of realism that the traditional MYST games offer anyday. Look at the incredible evolution into REVELATION...Uru is no where near comparision nor will MYST V be.
My opinion is that they should save that style of gaming for a completely separate series of MYST...when I look at this MYST V and certainly Uru after playing REVELATION & EXILE as well as RIVEN & the original MYST...it's just very hard for me to stomach that it is supposed to be a "MYST" game...and I like to think I have a very good imagination! Call it "closed" minded or what you will but those are my feelings. I'm sincerely happy for anyone else capable of seeing it differently...I just can't do it!

This message has been edited. Last edited by: neo...1,

In response to thewebb: yes, Revelation was originally slated as a realtime 3D game when it was being developed by DreamForge. ore information about it is here: http://mysterium.ch/revelation/dreamforge/dreamforge_e.html

When Ubi took the project away from DreamForge, there was considerable debate over what format it should be in. Ubi has never done a pre-rendered game in-house before, and that was a huge consideration, but the other consideration was whether they felt they could put the necessary detail into the game if it were realtime. Ultimately, they sided with pre-rendered graphics, obviously. When Presto made Exile, there really wasn't any other option available to them... even though they had an incredibly short production timetable (18 months start to finish), 3D was just not advanced enough in 2000/2001 to make a Myst game like that. I understand that not everyone likes realtime, especially since it has a long history of being used in games that are rather contradictory to Myst's style of gameplay, but Rand is the guy who calls the shots at Cyan, and he's a really big fan of realtime's freedom. There's a couple of other benefits that realtime grants, but they're largely development-related, so I'll leave 'em out of th discussion .

I really hope you do end up enjoying the game, neo.

I'm going to have to disagree with you, neo...1. I'm not bumbed that Myst V is "Uru Style", I like walking around in 3d environments.

Don't be hurt by any of the following things I say.

1. "...I love knowing that I can load them up in a moment & walk through them again with enjoyment..."

- Unless you are talking about realMyst, you can't walk around in the games you speak of.

2. "...take a year or two & develop the final installment of MYST the TRUE WAY it should be..."

- Who are you to say how the game should be made? I think the game creator knows best.

3. "MYST V won't be able to touch Revelation or Exile or Riven or even the 1st Myst...Uru just doesn't fit in with the others no matter how hard it has tried & neither will this MYST V unfortunately...I already know...ESPECIALLY after seeing that 'Trailer Trash' that it's too late. "

- The game is not out yet. You have not played it yet. Maybe the node mode will appeal to you once you try it.

4. "childish Uru game"

- Childish?


Now I'd like to say I can relate to what you are saying due to my feelings being the opposite of what I see yours as. Before Myst IV came out, I was pissed off that it was 2d. Yes I said before it came out, I was doing the same thing I'm telling you not to do (complaining before a game is out). People told me to just not buy the game and, just like you I replied with something like "thats not the point, I'm just sad it won't be as good as it could be. I will still buy and enjoy playing it." I calmed down and just waited for it to come out. It turned out I was right and it did annoy me that it was 2d. A similar thing may occur with you. I see one difference though. They say there is a node mode in Myst V and a real mode where you can walk. I don't know why anyone would ever want to limit exploration but it's there for people who have that desire. It's supposed to make it feel more like the old myst games which is what you say you want. With Myst IV there was no talk of a 3d mode so I felt more sure I was screwed.


Alahmnat -
realMyst came out before Exile so it may have been possible to have 3d quality with Exile. I was pissed off when exile was 2d after playing realMyst. I'm not considering development time or anything though.

Dark Screen

Thank you "Dark Screen" for your feedback. This is great.
1st thing you should know is that I will sleep just fine tonight & my feelings are not hurt by your points & could not be...it would take a lot more than what you have stated to do that.
I feel your points are misinterpreted or at least misunderstood from my perspective.

POINT 1) I suppose we are arguing about the feeling/perception involved in "walking" here. From a simple slide show transitional "presentation" experienced in the 1st MYST & becoming a little more refined in RIVEN... to the elegant transitioning in EXILE & REVELATION...in all these games... "walking" can be & is accomplished. At least from my point of view! I reiterate I enjoy loading up these games & "walking" through to this day with considerable enjoyment.

POINT 2) I am just a die-hard MYST fan expressing my frustration & hope for a return to the "traditional" style that has predominantly shaped & formed MYST. That's who I am & that is all. Obviously it doesn't really matter, URU came out & so will MYST V...I don't hold the strings or "call the shots" as Alahmnat so eloquently stated...but I do not agree that the creator always knows best in this regard. Look at George Lucas CREATOR of STAR WARS, Episode I is a MAJOR disappointment & so is URU!

POINT 3) I am going to buy it & play it...I'm not saying I won't give it a shot...I'm a dedicated MYST fan...but I am saying that I played enough URU & have seen enough from both the trailer & now from the MYST V in-game footage to know enough, beyond the shadow of a doubt, that there is a considerable difference in the way the game will run & be experienced. I am not in favor of this form of simulation for the MYST series. I played URU with 1st person perspective as much as possible...just didn't cut the mustard....& the same will go for MYST V unfortunately.

POINT 4) Childish. Yes childish I'm afraid. Bouncing/hopping insect creatures scampering about while you run around with them?? (Have you seen the in-game footage yet?) I know this is harsh but that's the feeling I get from seeing them as well as the computer generated characters...a less sophisticated (even if it is using the latest in technology!!) & more childish video game feeling. I'd much rather see REAL people like Rand Miller and other real actors play roles by actually participating in the overall feel of the game. It is not to be underestimated...it goes a LONG way AGAIN for me...from my perspective.

I do think it's interesting that you are the complete opposite side of my perspective. It does well for me to pay attention to your perspective & see the value in it. As I said, 3D is probably the future of gaming but I just don't think MYST fits the "URU style" 3D simulation for me. I gain more & appreciate more when the MYST series utilizes the traditional approach. They're' "3D" enough for me. The majority of the MYST games currently 4 out of 5 (THAT'S 80%!!) utilize the traditional style. I think that's important to pay attention to.

A quick note on EXILE...I thought EXILE was astounding & really took that extra step forward needed from RIVEN. Although not as dynamic & complex, EXILE, I believe, set an incredible standard in bringing MYST to the next level...finally realized & refined in REVELATION. I was hoping that MYST V would be even a further progression & refinement of REVELATION... so therein lies another reason for my disappointment. I am glad that Presto had no other choice & made EXILE in the "traditional" MYST style.
Thanks again for the response.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: neo...1,

quote:

Originally posted by Dark Screen:
Alahmnat -
realMyst came out before Exile so it may have been possible to have 3d quality with Exile. I was pissed off when exile was 2d after playing realMyst. I'm not considering development time or anything though.

Well, one thing I should point out is that the Plasma engine, at the time of realMYST's release, was really quite advanced (and continues to be so, in several ways), and I don't personally think many of the games of the time really held a candle to realMYST for quality. Unfortunately, Presto didn't have access to Cyan's engine, so they wouldn't have been able to make a game of the same caliber, I think. Plus, like Ubi after them, they decided that the slideshow format was more in line with Myst's style than realtime.

realMYST was basically Cyan's proof of concept for Uru... illustrating mainly to themselves that you could get a good-looking game running on modern hardware. It was also basically a really big public alpha test for the Plasma engine, and the feedback and bug reports they got contributed to the advancements made for the Uru version of the engine, Plasma 2.similarly, what they learned in making Uru was applied to the minor revision of the engine being used for End of Ages.

As far as the Bahro (the "creatures") are concerned, I don't mind them at all, and I don't think they look any odder than the sunners or the wahrk from Riven, or the electra-ray from Exile. Each game has its own unique wildlife (with the possible exception of Myst... which just has butterflies and seagulls ), and the Bahro sound like they're going to play a larger role than just running away from you all the time.

I'll not go into why they can't use real actors in the game, as I've already done so on several occasions, but suffice it to say that the concept wouldn't work because the way realtime works is very different from the way slideshows and even pre-rendered node-based games work.

quote:

Originally posted by Alahmnat:
As far as the Bahro (the "creatures") are concerned, I don't mind them at all, and I don't think they look any odder than the sunners or the wahrk from Riven, or the electra-ray from Exile.

While I mostly disagree with Neo, I have to admit that he may have a slight point here, though I would certainly not call them (or the game as a whole) "childish". When I saw the first part of the first video from IGN, I could almost swear I heard "Mario Brothers" music. But, I expect they'll be a little more impressive in the full-sized, full-resolution game. The Ubi version of the Bahro in the E3 trailer wasn't bad, aside from making me think of Alice the Goon.

So, according to Neo...1 we should stick to the classical Myst style. But, if everyone sticks to his 'clasical' stuff:
We would still have computers with a command line interface
We would still have the inquisition
Movies would be in black and white and speechless
We would ride a donkey/horse if we needed to go anywhere

Things change. Imagine: if the first cell didn't mutate you would not be reading this!
I was a bit disappointed when I read that there would be no actors in the game, however when I saw the ingame movies I thought that Escher was well done. He was made as realistic as Cyan could plus using animated characters you are able to do what with real actors you could not.

1st just want to acknowledge the responses...Thanks Alahmnat....
Thanks "JustBrett" I certainly agree with & find your Mario Bros' analogy amusing.
Now for you Ivan ! Yes...even a Thank you to you too! I'm not sure how much you read of all my responses...I think you're not fully understanding what I'm saying...AT ALL actually!

So to respond:

YES...I think the MYST series should stick with the "Classical" style as you put it...that's MYST series. Did anyone say MYST series...yes I did...that was MYST series.
I clearly said that for OTHER games this new approach is most likely the way to go...an excellent technological advance...a new wave of the future perhaps!

While your passion to get your point across is to be commended...and I do get your point...you have missed my point entirely.

If you're looking for a little more insight & are capable of seeing how even the "classical" approach has evolved, changed & become refined....simply play the first MYST or RIVEN even...then play REVELATION or EXILE even. You should see a considerable improvement, a change...a refinement in this "classic" style...."mutation" even to use your word. I think that the classical form both has changed & can continue to change for the better.

Seeing how you attempted to use outside comparisons...let me try one....Let's relate this concept to classical music. Listen to some classical music from Mozart's time or some Bach then listen to a more modern classical composer like Debussy or Rachmaninoff...You'll clearly see a change in music, a difference in the music....a different use of the structure. All the music is beautiful and stems from the "classical" skeleton...which many may view as rigid & tedious BUT it too changes.
Maybe this example may help to illustrate the point that a "classical structure" can still undergo change...and wonderful changes at that.

I think I would know the difference if I rode a donkey to work instead of a car...at least I hope! Clearly I understand your other technological examples as well. Give me a little credit here Ivan...

Thanks again for the response Ivan! NOW...Time to go see Batman Begins!

This message has been edited. Last edited by: neo...1,

Neo, I think a series can make significant changes in its method of presentation and still retain the essentials that bind each game to the series.

I'm thinking of the Zork series as the classic example of this. The first few games were straight text. Then we got Beyond Zork, which was still a text adventure, but had illustrations. Then we got Zork Zero, which was still mostly a text adventure with pictures, but also had some interactive elements in some of the pictures. Finally we got Zork Nemesis and Zork Grand Inquisitor, which evolved fully into point-and-click. (Did I leave any out?)

Those evolutionary changes were MUCH bigger than the transition from pre-rendered to realtime, yet all the games still had a clear "zorkiness" to them. (Even Nemesis, which was the least "zorky" game in the series.) If a text game can share a tight common bond with a point-and-click game, then I just don't see how you can hold Myst to such a relatively-limited graphic standard.

I wonder, have you played realMYST? If so, do you consider it MYST or non-MYST? If it's non-MYST, how do you really justify the distinction given that the story, puzzles, etc. are virtually identical to the original? If it's MYST, then why can't Myst V, which is also realtime, do an equally good job of representing the essence of the Myst series?

I was a bit disappointed with RealMyst myself, i remember in Channelwood in particular feeling like my vision was distorted. It was almost like i had tunnel vision and was looking through binoculars because it had a "zoomed in" look to it. Really weird. Like my eyes were 4 feet in front of me.

Hi "JustBrett" this one is for you...
(unfortuntaely I had this message near completion but I hit the wrong button & have had to do it all over again...

Thanks for all the probing questions...they certainly allow me to express where I am coming from more clearly! OK let's see... in response to your 1st quote:

"Neo, I think a series can make significant changes in its method of presentation and still retain the essentials that bind each game to the series."

I couldn't agree with you more...this is true for all games...but I believe that the "traditional" method of presentation in the MYST series has itself undergone significant changes & has still "retained the essentials that have bound this series together." This is what I mean when I mention that 80%... or 4 out of 5 of the MYST games were created in this changing "traditional" style.

Just a brief response to your "Zork" comparisons...certainly astute observations as to its evolution...but an entirely different game to be sure. What do you think I'm going to say next? Zork is not MYST! I appreciate other games & similar changes they may all experience but sincerely...I classify MYST into a league of its own...& rightfully so... Oh and I think the way you & I view "limited" is probably different. I think that the "limited" style you mention has still undergone significant change & gives an experience to the player that I would define as what shapes a "True" MYST game. Or said another way...I prefer that "limited" style over the "URU" style when it comes to MYST.

Now for the good stuff...

Yes I have played realMYST & I will explain my classification/justification.

1st a simple little chart: AGAIN A REMINDER THAT THIS IS MY OPINION to anyone else who reads this & wants to start blasting me!

TRUE MYST SERIES:

MYST
RIVEN
EXILE
REVELATION

NON TRUE MYST SERIES:

realMYST (COPY)
URU
MYST V (coming soon)

I'm putting realMYST in that category now because you mentioned it...for our discussion. Hadn't even considered realMYST to be a separate game because of the very words you mention...it is practically identical to the original MYST...therefore I view it as a COPY...and knowing my view on the MYST series in 3D...eh..nope doesn't count! I think realMYST served(s) as 4 basic functions: 1) an experiment with 3D 2) a foreshadowing of things to come i.e. URU & now MYST V 3) a time filler & 4) extra money maker. Is that all no...but I need to summarize... So my justification is that it is a COPY and also the 4 reasons I mentioned.

Just a note on the original MYST. I also believe because MYST is the catalyst of all other MYST games...the spark...the original genius...in this respect...it could be considered the "best" MYST game of them all...even with its extremely primitive "slide-show" presentation! Sounds weird I know. I told you I was an "Orthodox Myst Fan." But don't forget that's just from THAT point of view. If I had to pick a personal favorite... I'm caught between RIVEN & REVELATION. There are several factors I use in determining or judging a MYST game as I'm sure others do. Perhaps others would say I am "closed-minded"...and...I suppose when it comes to any MYST game being simulated in the "URU" style...I AM! Just doesn't do it for me.

Finally in response to:

"...then why can't Myst V, which is also realtime, do an equally good job of representing the essence of the Myst series?

I'll just repeat in a different way that... probably everyone else except me (the way things are looking here ) will embrace MYST V as they did URU...I'm genuinely happy for everyone...I really am. SO in the eyes of others it probably will fulfill that representation & essence you mention...I can also "prophecy" this to be true for ANY person who enjoys & loves URU! Obviously...they'll love MYST V even more. I just don't feel the same way about it for all the reasons I have mentioned from the very start of this discussion forum...and it's a "bummer" to me to see the "Grand Finale" of MYST go out this way. Like I said before...unless "the end has not yet been written" & a MYST VI comes out I'm holding REVELATION as the "Grand Finale" in my mind.
Thanks for the discussion...by the way, I love Dexter's Laboratory...only seen it a couple of times but it had me laughing pretty hard.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: neo...1,

As far as realMYST is concerned, I personally ended up liking Channelwood a bit more than I used to because in the original game I would always get hopelessly lost in the upper level. However, there is a bit of charm missing from it, perhaps because the animations are often subtly different and the speeches by Atrus are also slightly different in their delivery. I think Cyan has gotten a lot better in the animation department since realMYST though, because a lot of the charm and character so evident in Myst came through quite well in Uru's animations, and they seem to have gotten better still in EoA.

Wow, great debate! I also consider myself a classic Myst fan, having been a Cyan enthusiast since way before Myst... remember The Manhole, Cosmic Osmo, Spelunx? While you may regard the classic Myst as the definitive statement of what an adventure game should be, I see it as an evolution; just one step in Cyan's growth process. It was known early on that the slide-show format was chosen because realtime 3D was simply impossible given the development and delivery hardware of the day; 3D-capable video cards were largely unattainable for home computers, and that factor plus the low capacity of the computers themselves would have ensured that even if Myst had been 3D, it wouldn't have looked like much. So the pre-rendered worlds were an unfortunate necessity, as nice as they might have looked. Cyan was always aiming toward realtime 3D, and I feel that they saw the advancements in Exile (3D nodes and animated point-to-point motion) to be merely stopgaps until realtime 3D became feasible in the general marketplace. Yeah, pre-rendered worlds can look gorgeous! I'm still blown away by Riven, Exile, and Revelation. But; and this is just opinion, of course; if I'm going to "explore" a new world, I would much prefer to investigate every single detail that catches my attention, not just the significant bits that a node-oriented navigation wishes me to see. For example, Cyan lavished a lot of creative effort on the flora in Eder Kemo. All of that would be merely part of the scenery streaming by, but for the fact that realtime allows me to stop anywhere I want, look down, and see every last little blossom. The detail might not be quite up to pre-rendered, but to me the freedom of motion more than makes up for that. I can be more "human" in realtime, versus being just a disembodied eye whisking from node to node, then looking around to see what's new. Not only are the major points of interest fascinating, but the paths between them are pretty cool too.

Anyway, I do appreciate your feelings Neo. I just wanted to point out that as good as the pre-rendered worlds are (and I agree with you there!) they were always seen as just a step in the evolution of Cyan adventure games, brought about by technical limitations. Cyan was always waiting for the time when realtime would be possible, and just as the original Myst looked a bit primitive in 2D, likewise Uru occasionally looked a bit primitive in 3D. Myst and Uru were each the first step in a process; pre-rendered worlds got better and better with each release after Myst, and I have no doubt that realtime worlds would have improved with every release after the proof-of-concept Uru.

And while this may be irrelevant, Revelation was not a Cyan product... and as fabulous as it looked, my initial fascination with it subsided due to the really obscure puzzle designs and clumsy interface. I finally quit, and probably won't finish it. Yeah, it looked superb. But I just didn't enjoy playing it very much, once I'd gotten well into the experience.

Everyone has his own idea of what qualifies as Myst and non-Myst; I actually thought that Revelation was the less Myst-ish of them all (and I enjoyed it a lot, except Serenia).
Also, the Myst series wasn't even supposed to be a series: Cyan didn't even want to add "the sequel to Myst" in the Riven title, because they didn't want the words "Myst" to brand their games.

I loved Uru and it qualifies _to me_ as a Myst title: a game where we explore, where we stumble into mysteries which we do not fully understand, a game wrapped up around a story and not viceversa.
Myst V is walking in those steps and I'm sad that some people loathe it just because it's going to be different from a previous title they liked, when Myst had always been about being different.

The only thing of Myst V that bugs me is the first person perspective: I actually think that first person in 3D is not natural, it feels like your eyes are one feet in front of your body.