Dara100, be smarter than me and do not try to fill buckets that have no bottoms.

lol, nanouk, I take your meaning.

To say the two shall never meet seems pretty hardheaded. Which group were you implying you belong to again?

I for one think it is possible to be both....and being "realistic" does not connote being "hard-headed." Until that possibilty exists for you and others... buckets will always seem to remain bottomless....

The point of the discussion is something else though right? So...

Keep this in mind...in addition to what I wrote before...the reason a sci-fi movie or a game becomes a hit is also because it will form a convincing bridge between reality and fantasy - and what a wonderful walk over that bridge...it can be...if done correctly. Both elements are of utmost importance.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: neo...1,

Revelation was the last game in the Myst series. These things... which you call Myst 5 and Uru are mere illusions... tricks, to make you think there are Bahro. To prevent falling for this illusion brought before you just remember, "There is no Bahro," and everything will be fine.

quote:

Bouncing Bahro that are so powerful meanwhile so stupid that they are slaves just doesn't cut it for me. I'm not even looking for an explanation with regard to the Bahro...I'd just rather not have to deal with them at all.

What are you talking about? There is no Bahro.

-Zeus

For Dara100 only

I have a possible "esoteric, magical, mystic" explaination for our friends the Bahros.

They are symbols for the Stranger(s) and Yeesha who have to do all the dirty work for the Atrus family, sons included and the D'nis. While they are whining and see everything in a negative way and feeling sorry for themselves and all, wanting to be seen as gods with all the powers, we the strangers, Yeesha and the Bahros play into their games, just like slaves. They get all the honnors and the "$$$" and all you get in return is more whining. Is it not ironic that we can see some of the same thing going on over here ?

Mayby they are trying to get enough followers to make a common lawsuit against Cyan and Ubisoft for not sticking to their "views" and their "god like thruths".

Wow. This discussion's reached its third page. good going.

Dara mate, I feel I have to respond to some of your assumptions about me. I'm not having a go at you but please, I think you should try to make your points without attempting (however politely) to belittle the intelligence of others.

I have a very questioning mind and a fanciful imagination. However, I am not credulous.I agree with Neo that it is far more effective and convincing if that imagination (whether its gist is scientific, spiritual, rational or irrational or anything else) is explored upon a solid bedrock of 'common sense'. My sole argument has never been that I am anti magic, imagination or anything else, merely that I think it would be better for the Myst games to keep within the stylistic parameters it has set.

And I must say, as much as I appreciate your offer, I am very well -read and really don't need the reading tips. As you are of the opinion I am narrow-minded in my world view I would point out that one of my biggest influences as an amateur writer is the world's greatest writer of metaphysical fiction Jorge Luis Borges (i'm quite an entheusiastic Douglas Adams reader as well since you brought him up), hardly a man known for being an unadventurous conservative spirit. However as you seem to read only science - fiction you perhaps won't be familiar with him. Perhaps you should expand your reading material a little further afield and you will see that there is much questioning and thoughtfull literature beyond the relatively incestous and repetitious world of Sci-Fi. Claiming ignorance in others just because their ideas don't match your own only reflects your own narrow minded attitude.

I would reccomend Kabbalah (the mystical tradition, not the fashionable celebrity version) to you as an excellent system for cross-referencing and cross-fertilising ANY belief system whether it be mystical, religous, scientific or other. It would really help you transcend beyond your relatively narrow current sphere of intellectual influences.

now i've gotten that out of the way, back to the topic of Myst.

I agree with most of what Neo said. I think what this thread has taught us is that there seem to be two general types amongst Myst players (at least those who are interested enough to frequent these forums). Those who would like the Myst series to remain on its previous course and those who are happy to let it sail wherever its designers want it to go. Neither of these are 'wrong' and people should avoid making their arguments personal.

Generally speaking i've been quite impressed with the level of thoughtfulness apparent amongst users of this forum.

ChinaBoatMan

P.S. chinaboatman, you should throw your punches more at me than Dara. It is me who has taken the role of "the bad one".

Since there are many Kabbalah(s), even on the traditionnal side like in the old hebrew versions, which one would you like us to beleive is "the" one and only one mystical tradition ? Each hebrew tribe (12 + the one of the 13th lost tribe) has its own version and if you consider that more than half of it was burrowed from the older sumerian's civilisation like the Noah flood for example, it could get quite messy. Even the word Kabbalah can be written in at least 20 different ways.
And here I am not including the modern mouvements.

What is your own definition of the kabala and from which school of thoughts ?

Funny question: could the Bahros be something like the golems which over time could have surpassed their creators ?

For the fun of it, try doing a google images search for the words Kabbalah and Kabala.

That would be pretty good examples of "quantum leap" from one reality to another.

In case you wonder, I am a fan of the "Unknown Philosopher" (L.C. de S.M.)

This message has been edited. Last edited by: nanoukmetal,

Okay. Kabballah. Although this is spilling off topic, here we go.

I was referring to any and all systems of Kabballah (or cabala or qabala or etc...). That was the point. As it is such a versatile system which can (and has been) adapted for pretty much everything, it is the perfect tool for cross-referencing different belief systems. I am NOT a kabbalist (or cabalist etc) and I endorse no single approach but I do find it useful. By its very nature it encourages any interpretation.The only ones I have no time for are those who attempt to interpret it as a religion (such as the Hollywood fad I mentioned). A matter of personal taste.

Now, although I feel you have decided to play Devil's Advocate Nanouk, I think it's still a little mischievous of you to attempt to misquote my words. I never once mentioned the 'one and only mystical tradition', as you well know. I called it a mystical tradition because that's what it is, regardless of whether one is coming at it from a 'traditional' Jewish approach (Gematria, Notariqon, sepher yetzirah etc), a christian humanist approach, a more modern Golden Dawn / Crowleyan approach, or anything else.

Its versatility is its strength. This is why I reccomended it to Dara as he seems quite narrow-minded.

Honestly, I think you should behave yourself Nanouk.

Can we bring this back on topic now please? Magic and Myst: what do people think?

Regarding your comparison with the golem myth Nanouk, I think it is another good example of how derivative and uninteresting the Bahro are.

ChinaBoatMan

(I won't rise to the bait next time Nanouk so don't push it! )

Hummmmm, Dara100 (I beleive she is a woman) and me are "freedom fighters" fighting for the Bahros freedom which should ring a few bells for you. RE. your idol Borges. Hey hey, ho ho, ha ha.

Should we add a bit of anarchy ? Hu hu, hi hi.

This is me not rising to the bait.

I know people speculate a lot on the internal logic of the games, but I've never really seen it myself. The linking books are constant as was the story of Atrus and his family - those were the constants of the games for me. Myst, Riven, Myst III, Myst IV and Myst V all deal with Atrus and his family, in the context of a wonderous world, filled with linking books that are sort of scientific or magical scientific. Other interesting things happened, and some things are never explained - what the heck is it with the red and the blue pages in Myst, anyway (and no, that's OK, I don't want an answer). Honestly, to me, Myst IV just seemed to mesh in nicely with all the games - it didn't seem disjointed to me at all, or like elements didn't belong there. It also had that extra goodie of the most fleshed out family story of all the games, in my opinion. I liked it. I also liked Myst V. I do think that the Bahro storyline in Myst V was perhaps a bit disjointed, but they had to do something to tie all the loose ends together - and pull in some story elements from Uru, to get it all sort of explained, or at least alluded to. I think it works OK - not great perhaps, but OK, and {spoilers here if you haven't played) - there's some family stuff in Myst V, which I like a lot.

The Uru story (done before Myst V) - that is a little different. We do have a family member of Atrus (Yeesha) but there's more to the game than helping Yeesha. I think that's because it was an online game, though it's now available as a solo player game. You've got to have more to an online game than Atrus and his family - you need a more open ended backstory on which to base an online game. All of us need to be there for a reason. Assuming that Uru Live becomes an online game again, with new content (Cyan is working on that but we don't know if it will happen) - we all can't be just hanging around to help out Atrus or his daughter! We have to have a reason for being together in the online world - hence the restoration of D'ni and the different story.

On the chronology (where's Alahmnat when I need him) - I think the order is the order the games came out - Myst, Riven, Myst III, Myst IV, Uru and Myst V. I know there is some complicated idea of time periods, but to me they all happen in "my life", since I the player am the person who helped out Atrus and his family, in all those games! If time is supposed to have passed, a lot of time, between games - well, I'll just have to think that I did some magical scientific thing and went to alternate universes - that sort of thing.

That's how I look at it.

Ah, MSZV, the voice of reason! What are you doing in this thread. lol I agree with you entirely. If the story had ended: "and they all got into their rocket ship with their pet dinosaur and went to the moon", I suppose I would have been a little miffed, especially since no mention had been made of said rocket ship or dinosaur previously, and that perhaps they had hired six year olds to work on the script. As it did end it was tied up nicely - and for all those who may have missed it IT WAS A COMPUTER GAME! (I know it's heresy to some on these boards to call it that, but I have this penchant for stating the obvious). As such it (the series) hangs together much better than many others I have seen. To disect it minutely as though it were some religious tome/manifesto/epistle, etc. is futile and asks it to be much more than it was ever intended to be. That it holds up so well to just that sort of scrutiny is a testament to just how good it is.



"Consistency is the hobgobblin of small minds" - Emerson

Hey - thanks for calling me the voice of reason!

But, I do know that some people have different views, and work out the chronology, and look at the technology, and discuss what works and what doesn't. Somtimes people do that with imaginary worlds - the Tolkein folks and the Star Trek folks are still going strong!

It's something that I don't generally choose to do, except for a couple of things. I think of the games, all of them, as constituting the "canon", the world, inconsistencies and all. I don't count the books as canon - I haven't read them - though I've learned they are a great read! I also don't think that some of the games are more true to the world of the D'ni than others - to me, inconsistencies and all, everything makes up the world. If it's a little inconsistent (that rocket ship in Myst!), so be it.

Again, that's just me. There are engaging and interesting discussions where everyone gets into this topic, and my views are definitely not shared by the whole community. So if you want to talk about it - please continue to do so. You'll be in excellent company.

Here's to beautiful, rich imaginary worlds!

It's only a computer game says Dara.

And she is 100 percent right.

However, where she is totally wrong is in 'blaming' Myst fans for reading more into them than there is supposed to be. Cyan have put an awful lot of work and imagination into creating the story of the D'ni and judging by the things they say they certainly don't regard it as 'only a computer game'. Why bother with the novels if it was 'only meant to be a computer game'? Cyan themselves clearly debate these topics. Why shouldn't Myst fans?

Personally, I just think Dara is stung by the fact that no-one agreed with her. We've all seen how she has trouble coping with dissenting opinion. Dara, if you have such a low opinion of sad, obssesive Myst fans then why are you here? No-one's forcing you. This is a forum for discussing Myst. That is what people are doing. If you don't want to do that, don't contribute. Quite simple. If the topic is not interesting to you then ignore it. Is that not 'the voice of reason'? Attempting to belittle people seems to be your only method of debate and frankly I find that to be childish and unintelligent.

ChinaBoatMan

Ok - let's all lighten up here!

Everyone's opinion is valued, and it's fun to have a discussion with lots of different views. Fans of the Myst series are famous for all their different views!

So, no personal attacks and everyone "play nice", in the midst of all the interesting discussions!

(I haven't read all the above discussion; I'm only replying to chinaboatman's original question).

You write "special" symbols in a special book with special ink, and suddenly the book lets you teleport to another universe -- and you don't think this is "magic"?

The "scientific" side of the art, which the D'ni studied, and hence which Atrus learned (as shown in the ages of Exile, which he wrote), was the D'ni limiting and making sense of a greater and deeper power. The Bahro, and to a limited extent Yeesha, have more fundamental access to that power. Have you finished Uru:Path of the Shell? Let's just say they (sort of) address the issue of "linking at will" in it.

I can't explain Esher's teleportation though, but I haven't finished the game. Perhaps the cloth on his shoulder is a special Bahro item, or something yeesha made?

Also, remember the old saying: "any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic"

(Also, also: Myst 1-4 take place in a different universe than Uru and Myst 5. Myst 1-4 are retellings of the story of Atrus as discovered by the modern explorers of the D'ni cavern. The depiction of the art in those games may very well be inaccurate. Uru and Myst 5, however, are supposed to be the "real world" of D'ni and the depictions of everything in those games can be assumed to be more accurate than Myst 1-4. You don't play the same character in Uru and Myst 5 as you do in Myst 1-4.)

> Perhaps the cloth on his shoulder is a special Bahro item, ...

The Noloben age in End of Ages reveals the truth about the cloth. It's discussed in this thread and others.

> You don't play the same character in Uru and Myst 5 as you do in Myst 1-4.

In Uru, "you are you", but there are hints in End of Ages that the player is the person who helped Atrus in Myst I-IV.

There is magic in the air today because a little bit earlier, this post was made...click here

I think what chinaboatman is so upset about (and this irked me a lot too) is that Myst 1-4 set up a system of internal rules, only to have almost all of them broken in the last chapter. This detracts from the immersive experience, and is upsetting in much the same way as Gandalf mowing down orcs with a machine gun, or Sherlock Holmes flying into the sky and stopping a meteor before wrestling Godzilla.

That said, through severe mental gymnastics, it is possible to mend some gaping plot holes.

Imagine the original D'ni homeworld as divided into two distinct biospheres: an outside (where the D'ni live) and a supterennean sphere (where the Bahro live. They are two completely distinct sapient species. The D'ni evolved to have greater intelligence, strength, and longer ifespans than humans, while the Bahro evolved to have abilities which would later be associated with the Art.

Let us further speculate that before they encounter the D'ni, the Bahro encounter and befriend a 5-dimensional entity. The Bahro believe this entity to be a supreme deity and worship it accordingly. The D'ni, seeing the Bahro's power, but recognizing the true nature of the entity somewhat more quickly, the D'ni devise a way to trap the entity.

To explain how they did it (and I believe much of this comes from the "Flatland" referenced in an earlier post) let us imagine a completely 2D world. If you were to make your 3D finger pass through that 2D world, a 2D person would see it not as a finger, but as a circle that is constantly changing its shape and floating around. If 2D man were to stick a line through your finger (like a skewer through a cheese cube) your poor little finger is stuch in 2D land.

Similarly, the 5D entity protruded into the Bahro's 4D world (I'm counting time here) as blobby sort of shapes. The D'ni trapped one of these protrusions in the artifact we know as the pedestal from EoA. The "tablet" is actually a protrusion of this 5D entity. Of course, then, the Bahro would be slaves to the D'ni as long as the D'ni hold the tablet in the pedestal, the D'ni are holding their God hostage!

Even after the D'ni were long gone, the Bahro feared to move the four stone "keys" that unlock the pedestal without written instruction for fear of swift, D'ni retaliation against their God. The tablet itself, the protrusion of a sapient lifeform, will not allowitself to be touched by those who show themselves as unfriendly to the Bahro (although it cannot escape 3D land so long as a 3D object touches it). The Bahro presumably do have a way of freeing the tablet, and thus themselves.

As to why the Bahro can tilt planets and make rain, etc., this is really not so different from Atrus's ability to make boats appear out of thin air. If the Bahro naturally possess the power of the Art, then this is surely a part of that.


Needless to say, that's a heck of a lot of speculation. Although it is, I believe, relatively consistent with the storyline, I would have preferred if these creatures had never wandered into the fevered dreams of the game designers.