Okay, this issue was raised briefly on the Revelation board and I thought it worth bringing up here as it applies more to End of Ages.

What are people's opinions regarding the use of 'magic' in Myst V?

I'm thinking of the almost god-like powers of the Bahro and also the seemingly magical teleportation powers of Yeesha and Esher.

Now, it was established right from the off in Myst that the linking books work through a pseudo-science or 'art'. They are not, strictly speaking, realistic but they are not 'magical' either. Neither are any of the machines, devices and other contraptions found throughout the Myst games. The themes to 'Exile' make this explicit: different energy 'systems': Motion, nature etc. They may be fantastical examples of nature and technology but they are nature and technology nonetheless, they are rational, not magical.

There can be no rationality behind a power to create wind or rain simply by holding your arms in the air and making a few insect sounds. There can be no possible way whatsoever to rotate a planet or skyline.

(spoiler regarding very early part of the game)



Secondly: Teleportation. There is a pseudo-science to the linking books. I can accept that the pedestals work by the same priciples as the books. I cannot accept that Yeesha can teleport me away simply by waving her hand. How does she accomplish this?

Also, how do Esher and herself (and the Bahro)teleport in and out of the ages? We always see Esher touch his chest before teleporting but what is he actually doing?

Now, if Esher, Yeesha and the Bahro are all capable of self-powered teleportation between ages then what on Earth is the point of the pedestals and indeed the linking books? This makes them completely redundant.If only Cirrus and Achenaar had the same powers as their sibling, the prison ages wouldn't have held them long! How did Esher 'fail' in his own quest when he has this ability? Why not simply teleport to the pedestal, pick up the slate and teleport to the relevant keep? Simple. Job done. He knows their locations because he is always linking in to rant and rave at the player. If he's such an expert then what was his problem? I find this too contrived.

How exactly did the slates bind the Bahro? How did moving them through the various pedestals help in this regard? No explanations are even hinted at, let alone given, leaving us to deduce 'magic'.

This isn't really good enough in my eyes. I have no objection to magical themes generally but it is not right for a Myst game. That isn't how they work. 'I beat Exile' cited the example of Serenia with all of it's mysticism, over on the Revelation board but this to me doesn't apply in the same way. After all, mysticism has a logic, even though it is not neccasarily a rational one. It makes sense. The 'magic' in Myst V doesn't. It seemed to me like a lazy cheat on the part of the designers.

'Immersion' is a word used a lot in the context of the Myst games. However, this is achieved not only through beautiful sound and visuals but also through credible worlds with an internal logic, not with 'selenite' rip-offs, moving the heavens.

What do others think about this topic? Do you think that the Myst games should use 'magic'? Dis you like it's use or not in 'End of Ages'?

Have your say!

Hi,

I can speak of only Yeesha and Esher. I understood that they were not transporting by themselves but that they were wearing special clothings= "cloth" and they had to touch a special spot.(GPS marker ?)

I am wandering if you had the same questionning after having seeing a Star Trek, Star War movies or any other SciFi movie ?

Scientifically speaking, teleportation is already a know fact, re: when electrons go from one orbit to the next, they do not go through the space between them. They just disappear from one spot and re-appear instantly to the next spot.

Hi nanoukmetal. Good to talk to you again.

Since you ask, I don't consider any of the 'science' in Star Trek, Wars etc to be all that credible, no. I have no fondness for those types of films, programs, don't watch them. However, that is besides the point. What I didn't like in the game wasn't the use of teleportation (which has always been a major part of any Myst game) rather that things were not explained and did not make sense.

Your speculation regarding Yeesha and Esh wearing clothes made from 'linking cloth' explains their teleportation abilities, but not Yeesha's ability to transport the player (presumably not wearing such clothes) with a wave of her hand, which she does right at the beginning of the game. (If you don't remember this, go back and watch again)

My objection is that no attempt is made to make any of this 'make sense'. I've always been impressed by the consistent internal logic in the Myst series but here there is none.

I also think that if it's possible to link via cloths, pedestals and every other means then the link books become fairly redundant. Why bother with them? Thus, the most interesting concept in the game (for me) is degraded.

Esher links through bahro hide, which is what his Watcher symbol is made from. You can pick up the dissection pictures from the floor in his lab in Noloben.

Don't know about Yeesha though. She was always a bit peculiar.

"Esher links through bahro hide"

Why does the Bahro hide link?

I agree with Chinaboatman. The unexplained use of magic detracts greatly from the story. The Myst series was founded on one great phenomenon: The Art. That, I believe, is the only element of pseudo-science we need to accept in following the history of the D'ni.

A believable plot depends very much on the limitations of the protagonists. This is one reason why Riven was so successful. The lengths that Gehn had to go to to make working linking books were intriguing, and made for a compelling and immersive experience. Imagine if he just had to hold a hand to his chest - or wave a magic wand.

No, magic is too easy and - ultimately - boring.

Thanks for carrying this topic over here, Chinaboatman.

If I can add my two cents, the issue with the magic really started for me in Revelation with the age of Serenia. Mysts I-III obviously weren't blatant in realism but always exhibited what Chinaboatman cites as pseudo-science, an excellent way to put it - but in Serenia we were suddenly faced with water spirits/spirit guides, ancestral spirits and one huge acid trip disguised as a religious awakening. Suddenly Myst had transgressed from mysterious to mystical, a path it shouldn't have taken.

And of course, this path continued with the Bahro in Myst V. Mysticism played a greater role in plot and gameplay but at the same time it wasn't as blatantly religious. So whether the use of magic was worst in Myst IV or V is up to the individual, I suppose, depending on what exactly is or isn't liked about it. But the point is, the series was much stronger from Myst through Exile when it didn't feel like some sort of totally bizarre...Dream.

Chinaboatman says:

How did Esher 'fail' in his own quest when he has this ability? Why not simply teleport to the pedestal, pick up the slate and teleport to the relevant keep? Simple. Job done. He knows their locations because he is always linking in to rant and rave at the player. If he's such an expert then what was his problem? I find this too contrived.

Perhaps this has to do with Yeesha saying "The tablet has responded to you."? Perhaps it doesn't respond to Esher, and that is why he fails in his quest, and why we need to do it? Still doesn't answer the other points you brought up, though.

Erin

quote:

Perhaps it doesn't respond to Esher.

More magic.

Is it not like big touch screen magic were you can have access to anywhere on the planet ? (re: not shown ... the biggest one at the pentagon).

This is a medium size touch screen...


Don't you beleive that one day teleportation is going to be an everyday tool ?

quote:

Don't you beleive that one day teleportation is going to be an everyday tool?

No I don't believe teleportation will ever be realized.

Yesterday's magic is today's science and today's magic will be tomorrow's science.

About teleportation being possible (science) read the last part of this post...click here

Look here at one of the latest discovery...click here

And you might be playing games in a holodeck sooner than you beleive now...click here

Back in the 50's when I was talking about a trip into orbit or the possibility of going to the moon or mars, everybody had a good laught at me. I would have thought that the younger generations would be be more open, but unfortunatly, it is not the case.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: nanoukmetal,

Nanouk, it's nice to see someone with such and active imagination. No doubt it's why you like the Myst series. I also would have thought that with all the advancements that have taken place in our lifetimes that almost nothing would be inconceivable. By the way, it's "holodeck", as in "hologram" and wouldn't it be great to have one programed for Teledahn or URU?

Interesting topic!

Even though I'm a Myst fan from Day One, I really do agree. Part of the fun of the original Myst and Riven were that the situations and equipment we encountered had their own logic, and it was up to us to figure that out. The Art of linking was the part that stretched our belief the most, but I had no problem with that. I did observe the contrast between the linking in Myst, where it was central to the story; indeed, it was central to the D'ni civilization; and Star Trek, where transporting was just a story element, and a clever trick to get the crew from the Enterprise to a planet's surface with a minimum of fuss. (Unless the transporter malfunctioned, and therein lay several plot twists!)

Then Revelation came along, and as you guys noticed, there was a strong mystical element there that kind of defied the logic to which we'd become accustomed. And Myst V followed up with Esher linking with a Bahro skin patch, the Bahro linking unassisted, the Bahro moving planets, making it rain, etc. Made for a good story, and I enjoyed End of Ages, but yeah... it's a far stretch from the logic of Riven.

In Myst's favor though, and correct me if I'm wrong; wasn't The Art of the D'ni merely their own method of teleporting between places and times, as based upon science they'd originally picked up from the Bahro eons ago? Meaning, the Bahro had the inherent ability to link unassisted. The D'ni studied this, found that they could forge an equivalent via specialized writing, etc. So what we see as The Art actually originated with the Bahro, and they were masters of it, being able to link anywhere at will, with no special equipment. In comparison, the D'ni version was very limited. You could use a painstakingly prepared book to link to a specified location, and if the book was damaged or destroyed, the link was lost. Think of birds, who can fly naturally, and airplanes, which allow humans to fly... but always with a degree of separation. The machine flies and carries us, we don't fly on our own.

And once more, I ramble.

Mowog

Ye ramble not, Mowog, and raise some valid points ... which raise more questions.

If the Bahro were able to link at will, what was the point of those industrial-strength doors sealing the entrances to the Bahro caves? And how could the Bahro ever have been used as slaves if they had that ability?

Why was the tablet so important? What was the nature of its power?

At this moment, my beleifs about that is related to Myst V and the ending, re: golden slate.

It looks like only somebody pure at heart could touch it and release it. And the only one is the avatar.

Which would suggest that the D'nis, Atrus family and Bahros were not "pure" anymore.

It does look, very much, like our own legend "the Holy Grail" and something like "the originel sin"

Only Parcifal was pure enough to drink from the "Grail"

Apart from the wings, Bahros and angels are as mysterious and enslaved.

Comparing the Bahro's story with the Grail Quest is more than it really deserves, very flattering.

Your latest response here Nanoukmetal, proves the original point I made: It all comes down to magic, not rationality (unless you believe original sin to be a scientific concept)

As i've said before, it's the lack of explanation that's the problem.

You're coming from the perspective that you don't mind magic being used as an explanation in itself. That's fine. Normally, neither do i. However, that was not how the Myst games have worked up until now (apart from Serenia) and, as a purely personal preference that was the way I liked it. It made the immersion factor so much better. You could really imagine you were in these Ages. I didn't have that with Myst V, because of the magical elements (amongst other things)

Mayby as we grow older and older we loose the faculty to see things with our "children's eyes".

We have been so overloaded with all kind of informations that it takes some of the effects away. Just like drinking or drugs or pills etc .

To be able to feel, we need always more and more of everything.

We have just become saturated and then the only way to get a big rush is to go on a destruction path.(ourself and our environnement)

Mayby we do not all have the same definition for the word "magic".

If one day artificial intelligence comes to be the one controling everything, how do you think it will see when it will look at me, at you and at us ? Logical beings ? Mayby we should be should be more carefull when we make our wishes (= magic).

If you see a good suspence film, the ending is always different from what you expected. And did you know that the "secret key" used is "non logic unwinding"

It reminds me of mariage. You meet somebody, you "fall" in love, get married, have one or more kids and then some years laters, the "magic" is not there anymore and say the other person is not really what you were expecting (at the beginning). Is it because they became different or because you had big unreallistic "expectations" (another magical key word) and never took the time to observe a lot, first ?

I'm sorry nanoukmetal. I'm a little lost. Not really sure what you're saying.

I enjoy imagination as much as the next man or woman. I don't think i've lost my childish sense of wonder to any greater degree than anyone else. In fact, i'm currently writing a children's novel (well, young adults). I love fantasy and imagination.

I am interested in mysticism, history and mythology as well as science and my personal beliefs are a mixture of all of the above.

My aversion to the use of magic (meaning inexplicable phenomena) isn't general, just in relation to the Myst games, in which I don't think that they're appropriate. In my eyes the faux-science the Myst games previously relied upon was much more wondrous and much more engaging than the Bahro's powers.

A conjuror's trick is much more interesting than real 'magic' because the conjuror is dazzling you with his skill. You think 'How did he conceal that rabbit?'. If he genuinely produced it out of thin air the wonder would be gone. A case of 'Yawn. Well that's magic for you'.

Hope i've expressed myself better this time.

Best wishes
ChinaBoatMan

I see your point.

I am going to let you in a little secret. I did like only the first three games of Myst. Disliked revelation and like Myst V at +- 30% only because I could explore it with the fly mode (re:3D)