Hi Everyone

This thread is aimed at answering questions with regards to the Copy Protection that is being used in most of Ubisoft games: Starforce.

I will try to adress all of the questions :
- delay in the answer
- which protection and why
- reported problems and support
- fantasies and spin doctors

REPORT #1

Why such a delay in the answer ?

I think the first thread discussing the protection appeared in early july. It has been relived and fueled heavily during the last week. So why waiting for so long to get an answer ?
There are several reasons.
The first one is that discussing the protection is certainly not the priority when developing a game For instance last week I was at the Game Convention, and had other things to do.
Another one is that by my code of conduct, I dont enter discussions or arguments as soon as I see them. That doesnt fit my flame warrior profile (as illustrated by Mike Reed). Seriously though, I'd rather read a bit of discussions and points of view before entering a debate.
Lastly, with such a technical subject, it is necessary to get solid information from specialists to know what you're talking about.



Which protection will be used for POP:T2T and why ?
POP:T2T will be protected with Starforce, developed by the company of the same name.
This protection system is now used in all of the major games released by Ubisoft, such as Splinter Cell 3. Heroes 5, hopefully, belongs to that category.

Why do we use this protection system ?

The change To Starforce was made about a year from now. The main reason is simple : this is the most efficient protection system against piracy. Games rarely get cracked with it, and when they do, it takes quite a long time. For instance Splinter Cell 3, released in march, has not been completely cracked yet.
I dont think I need to explain why a publisher needs to protects its games against piracy.

What are the reported problems with this protection ?
I will list here the real problems, reported to our support department, about Starforce, and detail what, indeed, cannot be done with a game protected by Starforce.
Some users reported that the game wouldnt launch. Others, although less numerous, that a drive disappeared from their list of drives. This can happen in case of driver conflict (and we all encountered that when using Windows). Uninstalling the game and the protection had the drive reappear, of course, and replacing the game disc generally fixed both issues.
Starforce doesnt uninstall automatically when you uninstall a game protected with it. This is due to how this protection is done. It can anyway be removed easily at any time, using tools provided by their company. Of course if you launch the game after removing the protection system, it wont work
The only real issues I can see is that you need to insert the CD to launch a game, effectively preventing the use of ISO versions, and that you cant make a backup of the disc. These points cannot be resolved, as it would lead to very simple copying of the game, and thus, the protection would be made useless. However, in the case of disc damaging through normal use, it would of course be replaced by support.

What about other claims made in forums ?

There is a short and there is a long answer to this question. I'll give you both, starting with the short one : these claims are invented (to be polite).
Onto the long answer. No, Starforce doesnt destroy of prevent the use of other softwares (CD burning, emulation or others). It doesnt break down your computer, doesnt spy on your use of a computer, it doesnt require a web connection (unless in the case of a protected download of course). There was no report of such problems, and the installed base of Starforce with Ubisoft games alone is quite enough to be considered a good statistic. There were problems with the previous protection systems we used, and I dont think there was such a rant.

So what about all that can be read here and there ?

That's called a hate campaign. Its fueled by people who are indeed made angry by the protection, and the only group that is made angry is the crackers. As they and their friends are pretty much living online (a quirk I share to some extent), they can be quite effective in spreading rumors. And it seems that many forum readers can be impressed when two or three persons keep repeating the same thing over and over, even if it happens to be false. I'm afraid this is how politics work too.
I will keep checking problems reported here, but let me just say that I wont break a sweat about false claims, and about crackers and their friends being annoyed.
To conclude this part, in order for everyone to get hard facts about Starforce, here is a small document on how it works.

StarForce protection behavior

FINAL REPORT


Here is a second report about the protection system we will use with POP:T2T.
I got my hand on precise data on the Ubisoft games protected with this very system, and also reports from the betatest.
I hope it will appease the remaining fears and prove to be a useful information.
However there wont be a third report from me on this subject, I've already spent enough time on this detail.

I also won't enter into the argument on WHY we use this protection system. Simply put, it’s the best available on the market. It takes weeks or even months to get a barely cracked version of a game, and usually it does not get fully cracked. This is a world of difference with having the game you've been working on for more than two years available as warez on the launch day, in terms of sales, but also in terms of team spirit.

So the subject of this post is to detail the problems encountered with the Starforce system.
My study is based on four games published earlier this year by Ubisoft, totalling more than half a million copies over a few months, protected by Starforce. I believe this is a large enough population to derive statistics from.

The number of reported problems totals 0,3% of sold copies. Splinter Cell 3, being a very popular title, generated more reports than usual (see below), and without this title, the level of problems drops to 0,1%. That's one user out of a thousand, and less than 500 reports all in all, worldwide. I'd say this is low enough but I'll get into more details, what matters is the type of problems reported, of course.

Most problems (more than 60%) have to do with the activation key or the disc check.
Starforce comes in two versions : downloaded content with activation key, or protected disk. The protection works exactly in the same way, except how it is activated. The reported problems are either that the key was mistyped, or not valid anymore, or that the disc check failed, or not found. When the disc check is failed, it is easy to solve, so the legal user will have opportunity to play anyway.

A large number of problems (20%) are specific to SC3, and linked with users trying to start an ISO image of the game with an emulator. In such a case, the protection prevents the game to be launched, as it is supposed to do.

What can be considered real troubles are system crashes, or driver problems, or hardware problems. This is around 10% of reports. So that's about one player in ten thousands. I think this is a level consistent with ANY windows application.

Ok but what happens beyond a problem report ? More than 95% of these problems have been solved with the help of Starforce or Ubisoft support people. Actually the level is usually 100%, except on two problems.
The first is with a system crash, it only gets solved two thirds of the time. This happens in 2% of reported problems, less than one user out of ten thousands. So its unsolved for one user out of thirty thousands. In such case starting in safe mode and removing the protection suppresses the crash cause.
The second is with cd/dvd functions problems (no more read/write) reported with Silent Hunter 3. Out of 11 such problems reported, only 2 cases were solved. The problem could not be reproduced, and the origin could not be found. It is suspected not linked with Starforce. It could be due to a defective manufacturing of the cd in the first place, as this is appearing only with one game title. On a statistics level, it is still very low, around one user out of a fifty thousands (0.002%).

Sure, but these are reported problems only ? What about the real existing problems that do not get reported ? Well that's right, we don’t know about the troubles encountered by users who did not report them. But when you're a legitimate buyer, and you have all the contact info to try to solve an issue, why would you NOT do it ? Not much of a logic there, so hopefully these reports cover most actual problems.


Now, what about live experience of the protection system ? We've been running the betatest for more than two weeks now, with Starforce included. Well I'd say that what we encountered is consistent with the statistics : a bit more than half a dozen reported problems, mostly linked with typing the key, and only one case that took a long time to solve (meaning, for the game to be playable). The furor on Starforce has now died in the betatesters people, and some of them were VERY active in this matter. That's probably even more comforting than statistics.

That's about all.
I treated a very detailed list of reports, and I believe this is accurate. I'd like to address another issue bothering some people : the installing and uninstalling of Starforce. Some seem troubled by the fact that it gets installed without consent, and does not uninstall automatically.
Starforce gets installed with the content that it is protecting, no more no less. It is only one library out of dozens that a game uses. When you install a game, you have to install all of its libraries, you don’t get prompted on each of them. Either you agree to install the game, including its protection, or you don’t.
Regarding uninstall, I already said that indeed it is not uninstalling automatically, unless the protected application or game decides so. Heroes 5 will uninstall Starforce when you uninstall the game. In any case you can find the tools on the web to manually uninstall if you want to. But remember that other applications could be protected by Starforce as well, and they WILL require it to be reinstalled to work properly. In such case the protection will be reinstalled automatically, for the application to run properly. It just sounds logical.

That's it for an official feedback on the matter. If you have questions and claims, well a forum is a place to discuss.

- Fabrice Cambounet (HoMM Producer - Ubisoft)

Hello,
I thought i would share my experiance with starforce here.
I had installed a starforce game (Game name and compmay i will keep out of this) I didnt know what star-force was at the time it had no warnings on the box, cd or at time of install so i install it reboot and boom pc major failure my whole raid 5 array was corrupted beyond end user repair..long story short i send all my drives in for testing and data recovery and what was the cause of failure (this cost me well over 6 grand) And in the report i got back was the Star-force driver conflicted with the Raid Driver (i didnt know what starforce was at the time) so i ended up contacting starforce and they reproduced the problem and claimed it would be fixed in a update I had tried to get the to pay for the damages but you can't sue them.

So now for poptt i was going to pre-order this game a long time ago but as seeing most ubi-soft games are using starforce i was afraid to pre-order, so now that the word as been released i am very unsure if i should try a starforce game again, sure the mod's and starforce team will say everything is good and fine but ask them to garuntee this protection can't do harm to your pc and in 2 or 3 years will this protection work with the new microsoft os / differnt hardware architecture for example all scsi or sata devices.

If they can do that then i have no reason to worry. so could the moderator please be more specific on what version the starforce drivers are so i can see if my older bug is FULLY fixed before i go forward with this.

Thanks


Some other questions that i was wondering about are you said

quote:

"When you install a game, you have to install all of its libraries, you don’t get prompted on each of them. Either you agree to install the game, including its protection, or you don’t."

I see this in a totaly different aspect starforce is a DRIVER where you refer to it as libraries these are very seperate, sure libraries can cause software failure but a driver can cause drivers conflicts leading to severe corruption or hardware damage with the possibility of security holes (since as you said some starforce do check online) as the driver remains memory resident running all the time in the background.

replacing a bad damaged disc will this be a free service or at what cost to the end user /w shipping?

quote:

the protection would be made useless. However, in the case of disc damaging through normal use, it would of course be replaced by support.

One other thing you said was a small percentage complain about starforce now what i want to know was where was this data collected and from what companys, did you get all starforces reports, + other game companys such as codemasters, plus all ubisofts records to come to that percentage? what about the number that goes unreported since lets face it most average users have NO IDEA this protection is being installed and/or is causing the problem with their pc, most people will uninstall the game and still get errors then that would drop the possibility of that game causing the error or would it? since what they don't know is the drivers aren't removed with the game!!!!) or was your precents just a off the wall guess?

The only good thing about starforce is yes it does its job very well and i support that since the more funding the companys get they can develop better games (or does the money go for protections like starforce? I am still curious what it costs a company to put these cd protection into their game? I guessed about $200k ), i just dont support how it jails users to install something they don't need or want and also uninstall some software that users are legaly entitled to have installed. I am wondering how far the protection schemas will go in the near future since it is clearly getting out of hand. I'm thinking this will put a end to PC gaming altogether but then again if all their games were stolen all the time that could put a end to it too. so i see the companys point of view. there should be another way to accomplish this without the severity.

I shouldn't have to be afraid to install a game as it should be a enjoyable experiance to get my mind off other issues in life not hassle with disc checks and calling support uninstalling software ..etc

so i will say installing starforce has its risks no matter how safe ubi or starforce says it is however they will not guarantee it as it states clearly in the EULA.

"
6- Warrantee Limitation
The User recognises expressly that he uses the Multimedia Product at his own risk.
The Multimedia Product is provided as is. The User is responsible for any costs of repairing and/or correcting the Multimedia Product.
To the extent of what is laid down by the Law, Ubisoft rejects any warrantee relating to the market value of the Multimedia Product, the User’s satisfaction or its capacity to perform a specific use.
The User is responsible for all risks connected with lost profit, lost data, errors and lost business or other information as a result of owning or using the Multimedia Product.
The User is responsible to ascertain that his/her computer system meets the requirements as described on the Multimedia Product’s packaging.
As some legislations do not allow for the aforementioned warrantee limitation, it is possible that it does not apply to the User.

7- Liability
In no event can Ubisoft be held liable for any direct, consequential, accidental, special, ancillary or other damages arising out of the use or inability to use the Multimedia Product, as well as out of the ownership or poor functioning thereof, even if Ubisoft has been advised of the possibility of such damages.
In particular, Ubisoft accepts no liability regarding use of the Multimedia Product contrary to the precautions for use set out in the manual and on the packaging.
As some legislations do not allow exemption from liability in the event of direct or incidental damages, it is possible that the aforementioned exclusion does not apply to the User.
This Licence to use the Multimedia Product grants specific rights to the User and he may have other rights depending on the laws in his State or Province."

Im not sure how many time they say they arent liable but im pretty sure they say quite a few times in throughout

quote:

Which protection will be used for POP:T2T and why ?
POP:T2T will be protected with Starforce, developed by the company of the same name.

Good job, so far this is the 3rd Ubi game i wont be purchasing because of this intrusive malware that not only installs like a virus under windows but might screw up peoples PC's, thanks.

btw.. wish SF would have been used in PoPWW, would have prevented me from wasting money on one of the worst, bugged, half finished Ubi ports ever.. maybe SF will prevent the same disapointment again this time .

Even though I've pre-ordered the PC version of PoP:T2T,
I am going to cancel it for some reason.
(Now I know the benefit to live outside US.
It hasn't released yet here)
As what we can see here,
I am one of those guys upstairs.
I hate Starforce!!
I do have two games with its protection and I couldn't play it.
That made me angry....
No matter how many e-mails I sent to them for that,
they still couldn't solve this problem for me.

I totally agree with milroy.
As what I heard from people who got a game but couldn't play because of Starforce,
it does cause some problems.
You have to admit it,
that's why UBIsoft doesn't and can't guarantee.
As what everyone heard about what happened to Sony & BMG's CD protection,
you can not be sure it won't happen to Starforce.
Think about it beforce you buy it.

However, not everyone knows what all these really means,
not everyone knows what's really going on in their PC as well.
Especially when they don't even inform you they install a driver on your PC,
so.... still buy it? Then go have fun,
but you must know you're at risk though.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: GamaFu,

Did Ubi decide to use SF because it was efective and safe?
No, they went for it because it was cheap, and the consequences of installing this illegal, intrusive malware are well known out there. It may prevent legit copies of games from working properly (or at all), it may interfere with other software (minor) but if the risk of messing up OS instalations exists then its a no go even if the percentage of afected users is small.
There are better alternatives out there if Ubi really wanted to stop piracy while respecting its costumers. USB dongles with encripted data.
No more scratched CD's, serial codes, cracks, wathever but Ubi decided to use a cheap solution instead..
I am fan of Ubisoft games, from action, adventure to simulators, UBI is the company i have purchased more games from thru all my PC gaming years.
I wanted to purchase SHIII
I wanted to purchase SCCT
considered to purchase PoPTTT
I didnt...
I am interested in purchasing GRAW and maybe RB6 Lockdown. If these 2 and all future Ubi games are to infect my system PoP WW was my last purchase of a Ubisoft product (and it wasnt even a finished/quality game).

I would apretiate if Ubi would atleast ensure that the copy protection is removed completelyafter the product it protects is removed and that the CP is 100% harmless to peoples computers, untill then i will not purchase nor install anything that uses SF. I am not pleased with this situation but thats just how it goes..

I agree with all the above (besides for bitebug2003) , These companies like UBI treat its customers like dirt, There are 1000's of posts and petitions all around the Internet boycotting starforce but instead UBI and other companies just ignore its potential customers.

They all lie return false statements (bitebug2003 posts above) saying this protection works fine all the major bugs resolved but its all bs, i would like to see proof and a signed statement from ubisoft saying this protection is completely safe and harmless (I already know its not after what it did to my PC), OR at least pop up a dialog much like the EULA before the end user launches the game saying to run this game a protection system needs to be installed and give as much detail about the protection and what it does
for example
"Thanks for purchasing (Game title), in order to play this game 3 drivers must be installed in order for this product to function correctly.

These drivers are a byproduct of (Starforce) <-link ...ate etc etc" with a I Agree or I Disagree.

I agree this protection is very much like a virus since
#1 its invisible in task manger and device manager (without unhiding it)
#2 it runs in the background taking up resources causing compatibility issues with anything ranging from general application stability TO catastrophic failure.
#3 Most users are unaware of these hidden drivers no warning or way they can remove or uninstall them.
#4 it simply conflicts with normal CD recording applications like Nero, alcohol, blindwrite, plus virtually any other CD mastering software.
#5 some older cdrom/dvdroms simply cannot validate the protection ubi / starforce usually just send a exe to that user but more times then other that also fails and again most users wouldn't even know what a exe is.
#6 Cannot make a legal backup according to US law ( http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode17/usc_se...0000117----000-.html ) even though UBI says support will replace a broken / damaged CD usually this includes a "FEE" by the time the disc fails the game you can usually pick up cheaper then what s&h + replacement charge would cost (and ubi milks their good customers even more!).

#7 Playing with cd in the drive at all times this is a MAJOR issue for many people as everyone know a cdrom / dvdrom cost quite alot of money and by the time your done replacing the old drive so their protection works you wont want to wear the internal parts down faster ( I for one like to keep all my hardware in perfect condition since I buy very expensive equipment (this was also a reason starforce conflicted with my raid array looks like starforce couldn't afford to do proper testing with expensive hardware)

#8 future compatibility as i have done a ton of research on starforce (and many other cd protections) starforce uses "hacks" in windows to work now with windows vista just around the corner will these game work?

#9 blacklisting of certain programs like daemon tools, alcohol, nero, game drive, farston virtual drive ..etc seem in my opinion ILLEGAL since you are forcing a user to uninstall /modify a piece of software that serves many legal uses. (If Microsoft did this for example blacklisted firefox because it competes with Internet explorer I'm sure they would be sued very quick)..

I don't see how starforce has gotten away with its crimes this long I'm guessing they aren't based in the us so cannot be sued so easy (I already tried) but when it does come crashing down i will for sure join any legal battles against them. I think UBI soft should pay more attention to its customers if you just do a simple search in google about starforce you will find millions of posts about starforce problems and boycotts i just guess that isn't important to them as it isn't for all greedy corporations.

Also i have decided NOT to buy Prince of Persia The Two Thrones due to lack of information about the protection and its jut to risky I really dont care if its the biggest blockbuster hit in the history of video games no way in hell will i put my data /pc at risk again.

Looks like decent companys like Activision will be getting my money from now on.

I would love to see a post from UBI and maybe get some proof and records that starforce is harmless.

I thought id also mention reading some forums it seems this protection can be still "used from a image" by simply removing a device from your system or something along that line so its proof that starforce doesn't do its job 100% for the damages it causes (however this is just heersay as I have never tried or have the urge to try since I refuse to install starforce in my system).

Here are some links...
http://www.gamespot.com/pc/action/princeofpersia3/show_...=24911826&pid=926986

http://www.gamespot.com/pc/action/princeofpersia3/show_...=24894654&pid=926986

http://www.gamespot.com/pc/action/princeofpersia3/show_...=24908900&pid=926986

Here is a link on what starforce does...
http://www.glop.org/starforce/

Now i was planning on posting A LOT of other links, but just type in "Why Starforce Sucks" in google, or "Starforce Sucks" and you will see tons of pages on why starforce sucks, petitions against it and so on...

How does Starforce compare and contrast to the failed Sony CD software protection scheme?

Does Microsoft consider the Starforce and Sony software similar or different?

Certain Sony CDs installed software behind the scenes that then made the Windows computer open to a virus attack that took advantage of the hidden $$$SYS files that the Sony software enabled.
Sony was forced to recall its CDs.
Microsoft will include a tool to help users to remove the Sony software off of an "infected" computer.


I have played many PC games over the last 20 years that I could not create a backup copy (including Sands of Time and Warrior Within.) Those anti-piracy systems historically worked for me (joe average consumer). If the critical CD gets damaged, RMA it (return to manufacturer).

I would have little problem if Ubisoft and Starforce had created their own "sandbox" area similar to how Java operates where they control their own hardware and software area of the computer. Plug in a special USB key or USB device in order to play the game ... fine by me. They are entitled to carve out their own safe area in which to play.

For Starforce to install drivers that open my computer to some potential virus that can call the Starforce A.P.I. to elevate privileges to access Ring 0 system-level parts of my computer is unacceptable.

It sounds to me as if Sony and Starforce have gone down the wrong consumer path for this holiday season.

quote:

No, Starforce doesnt destroy of prevent the use of other softwares (CD burning, emulation or others).

So I'll be able to run the game and keep my virtual drives then?

I'm afraid that's not guaranteed:

quote:

NOTICE: This game contains technology intended to prevent copying that may conflict with some CD-RW, DVD-RW, and virtual drives.

I don't see how this is a big deal, save for the 134 people that buy the PC versions of the PoP games.

I am sick of companies screwing over their customers because they're scared they'll lose some money over piracy. Listen, piracy is sad, but it isn't something you can just stop. Slowing down people like that will inevitably hurt the people who actually buy the game.

I will NOT be one of those people to buy this game, nor any other game with starforce as the copy protection. As a matter of fact, I am going to post this on my pc game review site as a game to be skipped. I hope their sales drop a lot because of this crappy program. I don't think I will buy anything from Ubi Soft anymore... There are enough good games for me to buy that aren't Ubi Soft... Listen, if a company wants to use this poorly designed software that hurts customer's computers, then I won't have anything to do with them. Good Luck Ubi Soft. Not only will I tell everyone I know to avoid your companies games, but you've lost my business.

Plain and simple: You've lost my business.

lets break this thread down into precents for ubisoft
98% unhappy with starforce
1% dont care / like having virus

Shadowhawk22 I am also no longer a ubi-soft supporter in any aspect ps2/xbox/pc

Activision is still my favorite company and will be getting twice my money now.

I hope starforce gets shut down like sonys cd protection (used hidden directorys intercepting kernel calls) not much differnt then starforce if you ask me. If only someone could go to the press about it

This message has been edited. Last edited by: milroy,

quote:

Originally posted by Shrensh:

quote:

No, Starforce doesnt destroy of prevent the use of other softwares (CD burning, emulation or others).

So I'll be able to run the game and keep my virtual drives then?

I'd like to know that too, cause bitebug posted him/herself that you wil need to uninstall any viritual drive software from your PC if you want to play PoP:TTT

cant starforce or ubisoft make a system where after the disk is verified, you can remove it, and not have the hassle of having a scratched disk. I preordered the game (in the UK), but im worried about scratching the disk. I looking forward to it, but i don't like the idea of starforce in my system.

look can anyone please anwser.
I do not want to play this game with my viritual drives, with starforce it is way to hard to do that. I just use the viritutal drives because most of the time it makes it easier and I do not have to transport the CD's with me where ever I take my laptop. But in this case playing with the CD is easer. Now I want to know if I can play the normal way even if I have viritual drives installed. Can I or not. Cause I do not want to have to uninstall my software just so I can play this game.

I'm sure glad I bought an Xbox last year! I have heard Starforce horror stories since they first started using it. I won't buy anymore Ubisoft games for PC until they cease from using Starforce in their products.

well I went to the daemon-tools forums and they told me it was all right, so I bought it and it's all ok. Just in case anyone else was wondering.
But onfortunatly I can't play the game due to a camera bug or something.

I purchased POP: TTT and it works fine eventhough i've Nero, CloneDVD, CloneCD and Alcohol 120% installed on my pc.
I haven't had any errors whatsoever. Maybe it's because i'm not running any virtual drivers or anything.
Also the dvd/cd-burn programmes still work without any problems.

Although i understand these kind of methods to protect games from pirates, i do dislike the idea i can't play the game without having the dvd in my dvd-drive. I'm affraid of scratches on my dvd (and also the dvd-drive that keeps working without it actually needing it for the game).

So, ubisoft entrusts us with nothing more than a maliciuos software... I am not going to buy this game, untill SF is banned, or some removal tool is out. Im not going to waste my money on this. Why? I have a story.
I was playing "The Day After" RTS game (it's russian edition has SF3 on it), one day i started the game, and when disk check began i've heared the sound, so terrible, that i didn't believe at the first time that my PC did emit it. Disk check failed, and i was unable to pull the cd out of the drive with conventional means. In the end of the story both CD and drive were ruined, and nobody would replace my money, wasted on CD and a new drive. After this event i've sworn not to buy any SF-protected games. You see, i live in Russia, and all cheap russian publishers use SF. And it was time, i could actually play games normally by buying european and american editions. From now on, it seems i can not play some games at all. And i am not going to have this sh** on my PC. Ubisoft should fight pirates, not customers.