quote:

Originally posted by shadow_ninja961:

quote:

Originally posted by soron:
I could careless whether they call this SC or flying turd. All I care is that if they are going to continue this series then stop ****ing around and get back to making this series. They ****ed around with DA and now they are ****ing around with SCC. Enough with the ****ing around already UBI.

(except for all the expletives )
but don't call it splinter cell if it is not.

But the expletives are what makes it funny...IMO anyway.

not funny Soron, childish

quote:

Originally posted by shadow_ninja961:
Here are UBI's definitions of what 3E is,what a Cell is and what a Splinter Cell is.Taken from the greatest and original game in the franchise,Splinter Cell.

Third Echelon=An autonomous sub-agency of the NSA,third echelon commands independant splinter cells to achieve critical intelligence collection initiatives.Denied to exist by the US GOV,3rd Echelon is granted the power to evoke the 5th freedom.

Cell=A small group of operatives belonging to a larger espionage network.

Splinter Cell=A small,elite,aggressive intelligence gathering force,flexible enough to face the hidden threats of tomorrows wars.A lone field operative works with the remote support of a team of strategists empowered with leading-edge technology.Like a sliver of glass,a splinter cell is small,sharp,and nearly invisible.

None of that means that a fugitive can't be a Splinter Cell.

K, we have this mayor. Now, he steps down. He's not the mayor anymore.

We have this Splinter Cell. Now, he's not employed anymore. He's not a Splinter Cell anymore.

Yeah but Sam never stepped down from being a Splinter Cell. He stepped down from being Third Echelon and NSA, and it says that to be a Splinter Cell, you don't have to be Third Echelon. It just says that you have to work with the remote support of a team of strategists empowered with leading-edge technology.

quote:

Originally posted by jockdiesel:
not funny Soron, childish

I am not the only one who finds expletives humorous http://www.escapistmagazine.com/

Also, it says that Third Echelon commands Splinter Cells, but it doesn't mean that all Splinter Cells are commanded by Third Echelon.

quote:

Originally posted by DingChavez2005:
Also, it says that Third Echelon commands Splinter Cells, but it doesn't mean that all Splinter Cells are commanded by Third Echelon.

This disagreement is getting old. The name Splinter Cell really does not mean any thing. he could be called "purple monkey dishwasher" for all I care.

Yeah, I could have used that approach, but that's akin to saying that it's "not a big deal," which is just a subjective, arbitrary difference of opinion. My way is more objective, almost quantitative.

quote:

Originally posted by scworld:
K, we have this mayor. Now, he steps down. He's not the mayor anymore.

We have this Splinter Cell. Now, he's not employed anymore. He's not a Splinter Cell anymore.

True, however this is the military, walking away means you're seperated not discharged. If a soldier doesn't follow orders, insubordination or goes A.W.O.L like Fisher, he is still a soldier until he is Courts-martialed, tried and found guilty or not of those crimes. In that case, he would be discharged without honours, you need a ConViction for that. So yes he would be still considered a soldier/splinter cell, regardless of his new rogue status, under Military Justice hes still an active soldier.

quote:

Originally posted by DingChavez2005:
Yeah, I could have used that approach, but that's akin to saying that it's "not a big deal," which is just a subjective, arbitrary difference of opinion. My way is more objective, almost quantitative.

Maybe you should put away the thesaurus before some one's head explodes. What are you trying to quantify exactly? What is your goal? Ok Sam is a Splinter Cell, are you happy now? As far as you being objective, I doubt that. That is not to say I am being objective either but I am not hiding that fact. A fugitive does not = a Splinter Cell, but that does not matter because saying "Sam is still a Splinter Cell" is just a weak argument with the goal to qualify the "R-tarded" way the game designers are changing the concept of Splinter Cell in order to reach a "main stream" demographic.

That's how I always talk, and I am certainly being objective. Ubisoft gave us criteria with which to determine whether or not somebody is a Splinter Cell and, according to that criteria and avoiding all personal opinions, I proved that Sam can indeed still be a Splinter Cell without being under the direct command of Third Echelon. As for a fugitive not being a Splinter Cell, that's a half-truth. It's not mutually inclusive but it's not mutually exclusive, either. In this case, Sam, a fugitive, is a Splinter Cell. Finally, as for "qualifing the 'R-tarded' way the game designers are changing the concept of Splinter Cell in order to reach a 'main stream' demographic," the first person to bring in the game design is you just now, and the game design is something that would, quite undoubtedly, be subjective.

quote:

Originally posted by Woosy:

quote:

Originally posted by scworld:
K, we have this mayor. Now, he steps down. He's not the mayor anymore.

We have this Splinter Cell. Now, he's not employed anymore. He's not a Splinter Cell anymore.

True, however this is the military, walking away means you're seperated not discharged. If a soldier doesn't follow orders, insubordination or goes A.W.O.L like Fisher, he is still a soldier until he is Courts-martialed, tried and found guilty or not of those crimes. In that case, he would be discharged without honours, you need a ConViction for that. So yes he would be still considered a soldier/splinter cell, regardless of his new rogue status, under Military Justice hes still an active soldier.

A Splinter Cell in the definition that the previous games and book have defined it as mean Sam does not officially exist. But now he all a sudden is a fugitive even though all his records are officially classified/nonexistent? That really does not make any sense. If this is shooting for realism then it has missed its mark. Sam would be officially disavowed and forgotten by any government agency due to the embarrassment it would cause by the illegal nature of Sam's unofficial career.

In short there would be no manhunt for an agent like Sam by any official agencies. More likely unofficial means would be used to neutralize Sam as a national security threat. That means Mercs and black ops. Not police and other public Gov. agencies.

That makes no sence. What do you think happens to the SAS and navy SEALS when they take on deniable operations in other countries? What they do is classified, "if" they're caught in forign lands thier government will disavow all knowledge of their existence, and only in that instance will they, those soldiers will be on their own. However, when you're in domestic land it becomes an issue nationally. His file would be passed to those who need to know in the chain of command, just like if any of our operators in the Special Forces where to go rogue, they need to know what hes done otherwise how can they hunt him down? In America I believe it's U.S Marshals, who hunt down and can use the police service in apprehending a suspect if need be. It sounds like Mr Williams is abusing Third Echelon by using Splinter Cells and his power in using any force necessary i.e the police in bringing back Fisher.

The film U.S Marshals another work of fiction, with Wesley Snipes. His file was classified also which was opened up when they had to hunt him down, he was also setup by a guy wanting to kill him. If you not seen it I would suggest a watch, it is a bit old now, but pretty much what Conviction is sorta about, in terms of being a fugitive and clearing his name.

quote:

Originally posted by DingChavez2005:
Ubisoft gave us criteria with which to determine whether or not somebody is a Splinter Cell and, according to that criteria and avoiding all personal opinions, I proved that Sam can indeed still be a Splinter Cell without being under the direct command of Third Echelon. .

NO,You did not prove any such thing.Sam cannot be a "splinter cell" all by himself.A splinter cell is more than one person and mostly at least four.Sam most certainly did quit 3E at the end of Xbox DA.Do you even know what a rogue is? here are three definitions for you

Rogue=acting in defiance of established laws, customs, etc.
rogue=lacking required authorization, supervision, etc

or rogue=scoundrel, scamp, miscreant; see criminal, rascal.

When you are a rogue,you are acting in your own behalf,and not under any established legal or undercover laws.Lacking required authorization.

Just because you want to justify what Sam is doing by falsely claiming he is still a member of a splinter cell,does not make it so.And the point about soldiers doesn't hold water either.If you go AWOL,you are a criminal and no longer have the rights of a soldier.Go ahead and go awol and kill an enemy of the military and see if you are prosecuted for murder or hailed as a hero.I gurantee you will be prosecuted.You forfeit your rights at the moment you go awol or rogue,period.

The fact of the matter is,I and others here proved Conviction as we know it was no longer SC except in name only and they got so mad they deleted a whole thread because of it.That is the mentality we have here.If they can't win an argument,they just hit delete.

Only third echelon was given the right to evoke the fifth freedom.Sam only had it when he was a member of a splinter cell unit working in the espionage organization of third echelon under the NSA.

If and unless Sam is somehow reactivated in 3E during conviction,then having splinter cell in the title is deceptive,and in name only.Just like the SC books are a little deceptive by having tom clancy's name on the cover when he is not the author,just the creative mind behind the character.

So,ok,they want to call it splinter cell,so what,but it will only fool the ignorant.Go ahead and let ubi spoon feed you if you want.

quote:

Originally posted by shadow_ninja961:
NO,You did not prove any such thing.Sam cannot be a "splinter cell" all by himself.A splinter cell is more than one person and mostly at least four.

Ubisoft already announced that you'll be getting weapons from the black market, so you'll certainly be working with a lot of people. I'm sure that there'll be more than four people with which you're working.

quote:

Originally posted by shadow_ninja961:
Sam most certainly did quit 3E at the end of Xbox DA.Do you even know what a rogue is? here are three definitions for you

Rogue=acting in defiance of established laws, customs, etc.
rogue=lacking required authorization, supervision, etc

or rogue=scoundrel, scamp, miscreant; see criminal, rascal.

I never said that he wasn't a rogue.

quote:

Originally posted by shadow_ninja961:
When you are a rogue,you are acting in your own behalf,and not under any established legal or undercover laws.Lacking required authorization.

And yet, the definitions that Ubisoft provided never stated that Splinter Cells need to work under any established legal or undercover laws or with required authorization.

quote:

Originally posted by shadow_ninja961:
Just because you want to justify what Sam is doing by falsely claiming he is still a member of a splinter cell,does not make it so.

Nope.

quote:

Originally posted by shadow_ninja961:
The fact of the matter is,I and others here proved Conviction as we know it was no longer SC except in name only and they got so mad they deleted a whole thread because of it.That is the mentality we have here.If they can't win an argument,they just hit delete.

They deleted it. I wouldn't have.

quote:

Originally posted by shadow_ninja961:
Only third echelon was given the right to evoke the fifth freedom.Sam only had it when he was a member of a splinter cell unit working in the espionage organization of third echelon under the NSA.

True, but while Sam will no longer have the legal right to use the fifth freedom, I'm sure that you'll still be able to use the principles of the fifth freedom in Conviction. Also, according to the definitions that you provided, it doesn't say that Splinter Cells are characterized by their ability to use the fifth freedom. It just states that Third Echelon is characterized by that right. Remember that Ubisoft's definition of a Splinter Cell, at least the one that you provided, never said anything about having to work for Third Echelon.

Going by the facts we know (there are probably more unknowns that are clarified in the Splinter Cell Universe Book), ALL Splinter Cells operate under Third Echelon. They were the successors of Second Echelon, and CIA spies aren't called Splinter Cells in the game. So, by deducation based on the facts we know, all Splinter Cells work for Third Echelon.

quote:

Originally posted by scworld:
Going by the facts we know (there are probably more unknowns that are clarified in the Splinter Cell Universe Book), ALL Splinter Cells operate under Third Echelon. They were the successors of Second Echelon, and CIA spies aren't called Splinter Cells in the game. So, by deducation based on the facts we know, all Splinter Cells work for Third Echelon.

True.

But some people can't see the forest for the trees and try to make points that fail against the facts. Hey ding,twist the facts however you want,it doesn't change them.

quote from dingchavez2005
Yeah but Sam never stepped down from being a Splinter Cell. He stepped down from being Third Echelon and NSA, and it says that to be a Splinter Cell, you don't have to be Third Echelon.


(ding)"Sam never stepped down from being a Splinter Cell." (me)?? (ding)"He stepped down from being Third Echelon and NSA,"
(me)the exact same thing.

(ding)"it says that to be a Splinter Cell, you don't have to be Third Echelon." (me)
where does it say that??

(me)here,re-read the def of 3E=Third Echelon=An autonomous sub-agency of the NSA,third echelon commands independant splinter cells to achieve critical intelligence collection initiatives.Denied to exist by the US GOV,3rd Echelon is granted the power to evoke the 5th freedom.

see where it says "third echelon commands independant splinter cells"

your arguments have no basis in fact.in fact,the facts,prove you wrong.

quote:

Ubisoft already announced that you'll be getting weapons from the black market, so you'll certainly be working with a lot of people. I'm sure that there'll be more than four people with which you're working.

This?!?,,This is what you use to justify sam being a splinter cell?!?. Hey everybody!,Go buy something from the black market and become a SC. come on everyone,ding is a genius.why didn't we think of that.

Also,the people sam "works" with must also be members of an espionage organization under NSA to be considered a splinter cell. Doh!

Do you even HAVE comprehension?

It says in interviews Sam was seperated from the Military/Third Echelon (not discharged) and was living elsewhere until Grim calls him back. He re-joins Third Echelon, he is then setup and has to go on the run. Somehow I don't think he had time to be discharged officially, which makes him an active duty soldier who absconded. As for your A.W.O.L claim, it can easily be debunked, by the fact anyone who goes A.W.O.L is still in active duty, which means, the only way they can't be a soldier anymore is to be Courts-martialed and be dishonourably discharged, by the courts. Only the courts can dishonoursably discharge that soldier, until then he/she is a soldier absent without leave. Some soldiers come back to work, and if they do in a certain time frame, the army may take pay from them as punishment, you can look that up if you want about A.W.O.L. The same applies to any Soldier or anyone under the Military of Defence who breaks serious rules and regulations, they aren't civilians, they are soliders until the Military deems they aren't, the same innocent till proven guilty works the same.

As for if hes a Splinter Cell or not, hes still working with people in Third Echelon, but not in an official role. This would be like being a NOC agent, he was considered a criminal to the military and civilian population, when that ear piece doesn't work anymore you need to get to a secure phone line and report back, and get your mission objectives with those helping you, as seen in the Ubi-days trailer people are helping you and I can only assume thats where mission objectives come from.