I have no problems with people who like AC (although I despise it). SCC could be a nice game, but it's not what I like. Not in the least. SCDA was pushing it.

So: SCC could be nice, but it's too different from my beloved Light/Shadow-stealth for me. They removed the cool premise of being a super-spy with high-tech stuff. So it sucks IMO. =] James Bond without Q and his gadgets, or M, or his catch-phrases just isn't James Bond.

Drop the Splinter Cell in the title and I'm fine with it (still not buying it tho).

quote:

Originally posted by LaurenIsSoMosh:
All three are blending. All three are going unnoticed. The only difference in them I see is that you don't like one of them.

Could you please point out an actual reason for why they aren't the same, instead of just saying that they aren't?

Its a natural surrounding with both. Blending in with the grass, blending in with the darkness, etc. Its all with nature.

Blending in with a crowd just doesnt have the same stealth factors. You rely on people, and only people to blend in. If you were dressed as a Russian in All Ghilled Up instead on a ghillie suit, it would create less fun. In the dark and in a ghillie suit you feel as if you are being extremely sneaky and not making a sound is a major factor. You have to be MUCH MUCH more careful.

In a crowd of noisy *** people does it matter if i talk loud like everyone else? Does it matter if a guard sees me? In a crowd the guards will acknowledge that you are within a crowd but in a real steath situation in PT and CT they never even knew you were there until you snuck up behind them, took them into the dark, and broke their neck.

I hate running around like a target everywhere. I like it when I get to chose the targets and I get to chose when I am seen and when I am not.

This what it all comes down to...

In ConViction you have to pretend to be someone you arent.

In the previous SC games you had to pretend to be someone who isnt there.

quote:

Originally posted by ORsaleen:

quote:

Originally posted by LaurenIsSoMosh:
Um... >_>

quote:

Originally posted by ORsaleen:
Since when does Sam Fisher wear those?

Sam isn't picky about his outfit as long as it keeps him hidden and protected.

He wears what he needs to, not what he wants to.

So, ya know, if he ever finds himself parachuting down to his next mission and it's endless grass everywhere, I don't think he's gonna say, "hey, perfect time for the black suit!"

No, he's probably going to land, cut the parachute cords to use for netting, and start working on a handmade ghillie.

quote:

I just dont see the fun of pretending to be a bush with a crowd of people.

>_<

>_<

>_O

o.O

Wow... I don't think Sam should wear a ghillie out in public. XD

What I'm saying is that ghillie stealth and social stealth, two different things in two different scenarios, are both cool. Not wearing a ghillie in a social stealth situation. XD

quote:

I think of the Sam Fisher that is a master of the shadows. Not the master of social disguise.

Sam Fisher is master of freaking all. Not just shadows.

Look. On All Ghillied Up, Soap or whoever used the ghillie suit to BLEND IN WITH HIS ENVIRONMENT. Sam uses his black suit to blend in with his dark environment as well. Looking like a normal person and blending in with PEOPLE, just isnt the same. You will see once you play conviction.

It is the same, you're just not being objectable at all. Come to England then and see how many Police and Special Forces MI5/6 dress up as builders, business men, tramps in England. Who is really going to tell a tramp singing on a guitar dirty face is a Special Forces Agent? No one, so when you see a tramp in the underground pull out a gun and shout "STOP BRITISH ARMY" it is quite a suprise. Blending in doesn't work? lol...

London, after 7/7 we have had an increased presence of Special Forces and Police around the tube system, ever traveled on it? To give you one example of a botched operation was the tragic death of Jean Charles de Menezes. Guess what happened? Police officers dressed in Civilian clothes tailed this guy for miles to the tube station they wern't noticed, yet you're saying blending in with your enviroment doesn't work?! Are you kidding me? Their counter-terrorism training is to fit in with the world around them, otherwise they're useless.

In the Gulf War 1991 the Special Air Service wore arab clothes and shamags, why? You can hide your face for one and hide that you're western. Secondly how can you ID someone who looks like many other people with dress wear?

Another example for you, in WW2, one British Sniper who killed a German, put on his clothes, he went on the German Side and started sniping their own men while they where only a few feet away rom him. Many people call him a traitor in my country due to wearing the German clothes, the majority of this country see him as a war hero, but I guess in your eyes blending in doesn't work? If that's the case counter-terrorism and Military warefare better re-think thier strategy because it seems like because you say it doesn't work it can't work.

quote:

This what it all comes down to...

In ConViction you have to pretend to be someone you arent.

In the previous SC games you had to pretend to be someone who isnt there.

I think you need to take note of social norms... if I dress up as a builder and do recon on a building, and I'm not there the next will anyone who passes daily notice I'm not there? No, we don't take notice of these things. If however in a normal enviroment you stopped behind mothers fathers and kids, people would believe you're acting weirdly and report you to the police, and you would get a talking to.

Anyone could go to New York, walk around and no one would care about you, unless you do something out of social norms, and people ask how can you blend in, seriously when was the last time you walked down town?

We hear of these cases recently where a woman was held down in a basement for some 20 years, no one thought their neighbour was doign what he was doing, if nothing is out of the norm why would they suspect anything?

quote:

Originally posted by ORsaleen:
Its a natural surrounding with both. Blending in with the grass, blending in with the darkness, etc. Its all with nature.

People are natural too, ya know.

quote:

Blending in with a crowd just doesn't have the same stealth factors... In the dark and in a ghillie suit you feel as if you are being extremely sneaky and not making a sound is a major factor. You have to be MUCH MUCH more careful.

Just because you can stop tip-toeing now and actually make a bit of noise doesn't mean that you can now be careless. To compensate the loss of blending in with shadows, you now blend in with people. To compensate the loss of keeping your noise low, you now have to keep your suspicion low. Although people can hear you, they can hear everyone else too, so why should you be singled out? Unless of course you do something suspicious to single yourself out (the equivalent of making noise in previous games, which singles you out from the darkness).

quote:

Originally posted by DixieWolf:
I think you need to take note of social norms... if I dress up as a builder and do recon on a building, and I'm not there the next will anyone who passes daily notice I'm not there? No, we don't take notice of these things. If however in a normal enviroment you stopped behind mothers fathers and kids, people would believe you're acting weirdly and report you to the police, and you would get a talking to.

Anyone could go to New York, walk around and no one would care about you, unless you do something out of social norms, and people ask how can you blend in, seriously when was the last time you walked down town?

We hear of these cases recently where a woman was held down in a basement for some 20 years, no one thought their neighbour was doign what he was doing, if nothing is out of the norm why would they suspect anything?

I dont want to worry about norms when I play. I dont want the crowd to have utter control of my fate. I dont want to have to worry about how the crowd moves. I want to control how I want to play..

For your German sniper example. I never said it wouldnt work, i just dont see the fun of it. Conviction would be the stage where he got those cloths and took them off behind enemy lines. But blending in with an enemy is different than a crowd. I would rather have that German sniper wait for cover of darkness and advance. With a disguise you are perfect to walk around unnoticed and do whatever you please.

But please re-read. I never said blending in with the environment doesnt work. It was masterfully done in PT and CT.

Sorry for the triple post but for some reason my long response had an error so i lost a big response that you probably wouldnt read anyway like you didnt read the other. But anyway, for the following example...Is this fun? Folowing someone all day long? Ive followed people in GTA and tried to act completely normal. Its boring. Going 20 mph and leaving yourself a space cushion. I couldnt wait for that mission to be over. I like flyin around at 100mph and acting like a jackass in that game.

quote:

Originally posted by LaurenIsSoMosh:

quote:

Originally posted by ORsaleen:
Its a natural surrounding with both. Blending in with the grass, blending in with the darkness, etc. Its all with nature.

People are natural too, ya know.

quote:

Blending in with a crowd just doesn't have the same stealth factors... In the dark and in a ghillie suit you feel as if you are being extremely sneaky and not making a sound is a major factor. You have to be MUCH MUCH more careful.

Just because you can stop tip-toeing now and actually make a bit of noise doesn't mean that you can now be careless. To compensate the loss of blending in with shadows, you now blend in with people. To compensate the loss of keeping your noise low, you now have to keep your suspicion low. Although people can hear you, they can hear everyone else too, so why should you be singled out? Unless of course you do something suspicious to single yourself out (the equivalent of making noise in previous games, which singles you out from the darkness).

Blending in with people just isnt fun. Acting like everyone else is boring. Trust me...

Quad post ftw?

quote:

Originally posted by ORsaleen:

quote:

Originally posted by DixieWolf:
I think you need to take note of social norms... if I dress up as a builder and do recon on a building, and I'm not there the next will anyone who passes daily notice I'm not there? No, we don't take notice of these things. If however in a normal enviroment you stopped behind mothers fathers and kids, people would believe you're acting weirdly and report you to the police, and you would get a talking to.

Anyone could go to New York, walk around and no one would care about you, unless you do something out of social norms, and people ask how can you blend in, seriously when was the last time you walked down town?

We hear of these cases recently where a woman was held down in a basement for some 20 years, no one thought their neighbour was doign what he was doing, if nothing is out of the norm why would they suspect anything?

I dont want to worry about norms when I play. I dont want the crowd to have utter control of my fate. I dont want to have to worry about how the crowd moves. I want to control how I want to play..

Um yes you do want to care about norms when you play otherwise yuo just contradicting yourself. For example if I go from shadow to shadow, would anyone notice me? No Would the guard be on alert? No, why? because everything looks normal. Someone can easily rebuttal and say well you know what ORsaleen "I dont want the shadows to have utter control of my fate" exactly the same, which in some levels of Splinter Cell it did. You see the only difference between old Splinter Cell and new Splinter Cell is that we replace shadows with corwds, the gameplay mechanic uses the same pinciple, so it really is a moot point how you want it to control your fate, because both are the same just different context.

quote:

For your German sniper example. I never said it wouldnt work, i just dont see the fun of it.

Maybe this is the problem, maybe Splinter Cell just doesn't appeal to you anymore, time to move on? Because simply put if this game kept the samething over and over again, I would move on to another game, why? Because the repitition of the same gameplay mechanics is monotonous and derivitive.

My point with the German Sniper is this, he was surrounded by hundreds of Germans, he was up on the first floor of a building shooting the Germans who where only a few hundred yards away and they didn't notice him doing it, why? Because they considered him on their side, to them he was normal. if he was however In British uniform, they would of killed him very quickly.

quote:

Is this fun? Folowing someone all day long? Ive followed people in GTA and tried to act completely normal. Its boring. Going 20 mph and leaving yourself a space cushion. I couldnt wait for that mission to be over.

Is it fun? yes it is, do you know why? Because in GTA IV it only happens a few times in the game, many of us call this a change to the pace of the game, instead of just shooting everyone up you must follow. There is one side mission where you must follow a couple because the husband suspects the wife is cheating, and you must take pictures of them together. Quite a fun mission. You do realise there are more then 80 missions in GTA 4? and only a handful you follow cars around from a distance... I really can't see the problem especially when you take into consideration the ratio of those whioch are action orinatated to stealth missions.

quote:

I like flyin around at 100mph and acting like a jackass in that game.

I find this somewhat ironic... Are you a stealth player or an action orinatated gamer? Stealth requires patience, waiting up to minutes, yet it sounds liek you want instant gratification, please could you clarify what type of gamer you are? Because many who are set on stealth don't mind stalking guards in games for minutes in Splinter Cell, but if it's a car in GTA 4 you have a problem with it, I just don't buy the contradiction.

quote:

Originally posted by scworld:
So: SCC could be nice, but it's too different from my beloved Light/Shadow-stealth for me.

quote:

The game will have you, for example, heading into an office to hack into four servers. Security guards roam the premises, constantly patrolling across multiple floors. These sentries remain cool until Sam hacks the first server. With each hacked server, enemy threat increases, eventually all hell breaks loose. Pinpointing his location, the guards soon enclose on the fugitive to a point where a confrontation becomes inevitable. During such segments, you'll be able to use any means necessary to overcome or distract enemies - for example, it's possible to scatter papers off of desks straight into a guard's face or you may grab a chair to hit him with it. Tipping over tables is also an option and makes for a decent cover and a good way to barricade doors. Another helpful thing is being able to snatch walkie-talkies from defeated guards and listen in on the enemy to learn how the search is going.

Source:http://www.actiontrip.com/previews/splintercellconviction.phtml

quote:

Originally posted by scworld:
They removed the cool premise of being a super-spy with high-tech stuff.

quote:

As far as Sam's usual gadgets are concerned, players may look forward to having a significant range of useful items and weapons at their disposal. However, since you're on your own, without the government to provide the goods, most of the supplies and equipment will come from the black market. That means you shouldn't expect the typical high-tech stuff from earlier titles.

Source:http://www.actiontrip.com/previews/splintercellconviction.phtml

quote:

Um yes you do want to care about norms when you play otherwise yuo just contradicting yourself. For example if I go from shadow to shadow, would anyone notice me? No Would the guard be on alert? No, why? because everything looks normal. Someone can easily rebuttal and say well you know what ORsaleen "I dont want the shadows to have utter control of my fate" exactly the same, which in some levels of Splinter Cell it did. You see the only difference between old Splinter Cell and new Splinter Cell is that we replace shadows with corwds, the gameplay mechanic uses the same pinciple, so it really is a moot point how you want it to control your fate, because both are the same just different context.

Someone could say that, but then they would be saying that PT and CT sucked which is not the case. CT won top awards and got top reviews. So if anyone were to make that claim then their sense of what makes a great game has been ruined.

quote:

Maybe this is the problem, maybe Splinter Cell just doesn't appeal to you anymore, time to move on? Because simply put if this game kept the samething over and over again, I would move on to another game, why? Because the repitition of the same gameplay mechanics is monotonous and derivitive.

No, its like Lord of the Rings. You watch the first movie and you support the direction itis going. Now lets say Lord of the Rings made a sudden turn away from what caught my interest (just as ConViction has) then my interest is lost.

Have you ever been Rick Rolled? You think your watching a video of something you want to see, then you hear the music and you exit the video. I hear of ConViction and hear that its not the real splinter cell anymore and I exit my interest.

For example, I like splinter cell because of the stealth and shadows. As it leaves, so do I. Same goes for some sports. I am a fan of a certian player on a baseball team. If he goes, I go with him. This is exactly how I feel about Splinter Cell.

Games do get old, but thats why we have new ones. We get new levels to play around on and new gadgets to play with. We shouldnt get a whole new game. I personally liked splinter cell the way it was, and you obviously didnt otherwise you would be bitching like me

quote:

Is it fun? yes it is, do you know why? Because in GTA IV it only happens a few times in the game, many of us call this a change to the pace of the game, instead of just shooting everyone up you must follow. There is one side mission where you must follow a couple because the husband suspects the wife is cheating, and you must take pictures of them together. Quite a fun mission. You do realise there are more then 80 missions in GTA 4? and only a handful you follow cars around from a distance... I really can't see the problem especially when you take into consideration the ratio of those whioch are action orinatated to stealth missions.

Maybe its a nice change of pace but please imagine the WHOLE GAME EXACTLY like this...

Following people, acting like an ordinary citizen in a crowd, etc isnt my idea of a fun game. You wont change my mind and I wont change yours. Your Idea of fun for all I know could be dressing up as a ballerina. Now that might not sound like fun to me, you might see the great fun in it that I dont.

quote:

I find this somewhat ironic... Are you a stealth player or an action orinatated gamer? Stealth requires patience, waiting up to minutes, yet it sounds liek you want instant gratification, please could you clarify what type of gamer you are? Because many who are set on stealth don't mind stalking guards in games for minutes in Splinter Cell, but if it's a car in GTA 4 you have a problem with it, I just don't buy the contradiction.

I like lots of games. When I play GTA that is just what I like to do the most. Its my favorite activity in the game. Just like sneaking around and breakin necks on multi is my favorite thing in CT. We all have our favorite things to do. And once that favorite thing is gone we are left to find something else better about the game. And I just havent found anything in ConViction that makes me want to buy or even rent this game.

When I think of splinter Cell I think of it as its own unique genre of game. Asking if i would ever get tired sparks the question in my mind...Do I ever get tired of First Person Shooters? Heck no! I love FPS games and will love them all my life.

quote:

Someone could say that, but then they would be saying that PT and CT sucked which is not the case. CT won top awards and got top reviews. So if anyone were to make that claim then their sense of what makes a great game has been ruined.

If someone says PT and CT sucked it is simply their own opinion is it not? To them the game sucked, you cannot change their opinion, you could back it up saying the game won awards, it's still not going to change the fact for that one individual the game experience they had, for them it wasn't fun.

quote:

No, its like Lord of the Rings. You watch the first movie and you support the direction itis going. Now lets say Lord of the Rings made a sudden turn away from what caught my interest (just as ConViction has) then my interest is lost.

It depends how the change is, is it for story? Then I have no issue with it, otherwise it would be like me a fan of Sean Bean going, "oh no they just killed Boromir, I shall now turn it off and not watch the other two films". Take Tv shows the same where the lead character dies, many fans complain, I'm not watching now, Michelle Rodriguez fans who stopped watching Lost, because she was killed off in season 2, they wern't fans of the show where they? Yet they say they where only because she was in it, seems like a real poor reason to follow a show. Another thing, Michael Ironside him self has said and I quote:

quote:

" I'm not a big fan of television" said Mr Ironside "I've had a hard time over the years because I think the quality of the writing sort of starts to deteriorate". He believed that , although the original intention was to produce TV shows with integrity and creativity " when you create a character everyone loves, you never get someone to let you do anything to them. It's a marginal business at best, and once you get something that works they want you to protect it and keep it. And in doing that, I think it starts to degenerate."


Mr Ironside had some very radical views on lead characters. " You have to be willing to kill a character, you have to be willing to take those risks". Mr Ironside's views date back to his student days. "When I was in art college" he continued, "I would be painting, and I would create something on a canvas that was actually quite attractive. But if I got frightened and tried to protect that, that canvas would die. You have to attack the whole canvas with that same energy, and that's what we're going to do with the show".

Michael Ironside gave some hints as to his involvement with the show.

"I'm very heavily into the storyline and show-running. My M.O. over the years is that I make things better, where people give me that freedom. I'm a director's actor; I'm a storyteller's actor. I believe in making something deeper, richer, and more real.

source Ice Planet Tv

The first paragragh sounds like many posts on this very forum.

quote:

For example, I like splinter cell because of the stealth and shadows. As it leaves, so do I. Same goes for some sports. I am a fan of a certian player on a baseball team. If he goes, I go with him. This is exactly how I feel about Splinter Cell.

Fair enough, but I would say you're in the very small minority, in England where I live if a player leaves the team fans don't follow the player, they're loyal to their team. Next time that player comes to that pitch to play against he gets boo'd, we generally get over things quickly.

quote:

Games do get old, but thats why we have new ones. We get new levels to play around on and new gadgets to play with. We shouldnt get a whole new game. I personally liked splinter cell the way it was, and you obviously didnt otherwise you would be bitching like me

Ok, so lets say hypothetically Ubi make another Light and Shadow game, can the next game can they do crowd gameplay? Or must it be only light and shadow? Because if it's the latter, then I would be looking at Alpha Protocol, which has the same type of storyline Conviction has an it's stealth is broader then Splinter Cell, or Metal Gear Solid 4.

quote:

Maybe its a nice change of pace but please imagine the WHOLE GAME EXACTLY like this...

Following people, acting like an ordinary citizen in a crowd, etc isnt my idea of a fun game. You wont change my mind and I wont change yours. Your Idea of fun for all I know could be dressing up as a ballerina. Now that might not sound like fun to me, you might see the great fun in it that I dont.

But what do you do in Splinter Cell, shadow shoot a light bulb move to a shadow, and you do this the whole game, yet that is some how fine but the other seems boring? I think the former just appeals to you, and while it did appeal to many others we've simply got bored of the concept now and want something new. There used to be a game called Interstate 76, a driving game, it had a few stealth elements in too, amazing game early 90's the follow up which was a betetr looking game same concept flopped because it was the samething, better graphics. They're working on a new thief game, which by the way is where Splinter Cell got it's light and shadow gameplay, that game was originally FPS, it is no rumored TPS, should people complain even though they haven't played it yet? No.

quote:

I like lots of games. When I play GTA that is just what I like to do the most. Its my favorite activity in the game. Just like sneaking around and breakin necks on multi is my favorite thing in CT. We all have our favorite things to do. And once that favorite thing is gone we are left to find something else better about the game. And I just havent found anything in ConViction that makes me want to buy or even rent this game.

I'll be the judge of that thank you, if the game is rubbish I will say so, but pre-judging it on a pre-alpha which isn't even feature complete... I mean what dom you think you do in Conviction play in the crowds all the time? What about the screenshots from inside buildings? So no I don't agree unless I see something that really puts me off I wait for the game to really say it's not for me, and then I shall quietly move on.

quote:

Originally posted by Vth_F_Smith_:
Pinpointing his location, the guards soon enclose on the fugitive to a point where a confrontation becomes inevitable.

quote:

Originally posted by Vth_F_Smith_:

quote:

Originally posted by scworld:
So: SCC could be nice, but it's too different from my beloved Light/Shadow-stealth for me.

quote:

The game will have you, for example, heading into an office to hack into four servers. Security guards roam the premises, constantly patrolling across multiple floors. These sentries remain cool until Sam hacks the first server. With each hacked server, enemy threat increases, eventually all hell breaks loose. Pinpointing his location, the guards soon enclose on the fugitive to a point where a confrontation becomes inevitable. During such segments, you'll be able to use any means necessary to overcome or distract enemies - for example, it's possible to scatter papers off of desks straight into a guard's face or you may grab a chair to hit him with it. Tipping over tables is also an option and makes for a decent cover and a good way to barricade doors. Another helpful thing is being able to snatch walkie-talkies from defeated guards and listen in on the enemy to learn how the search is going.

Source:http://www.actiontrip.com/previews/splintercellconviction.phtml

quote:

Originally posted by scworld:
They removed the cool premise of being a super-spy with high-tech stuff.

quote:

As far as Sam's usual gadgets are concerned, players may look forward to having a significant range of useful items and weapons at their disposal. However, since you're on your own, without the government to provide the goods, most of the supplies and equipment will come from the black market. That means you shouldn't expect the typical high-tech stuff from earlier titles.

Source:http://www.actiontrip.com/previews/splintercellconviction.phtml

Things I don't like, or which are highly unlikely/impossible (Sam hacking a PC without help of Grimdottir? WTF?) are in bold.

quote:

Originally posted by CoastalGirl:

quote:

Originally posted by Vth_F_Smith_:
Pinpointing his location, the guards soon enclose on the fugitive to a point where a confrontation becomes inevitable.

It always depends on how you want that confrontation to end.

quote:

During such segments, you'll be able to use any means necessary to overcome or distract enemies - for example, it's possible to scatter papers off of desks straight into a guard's face or you may grab a chair to hit him with it. Tipping over tables is also an option and makes for a decent cover and a good way to barricade doors. Another helpful thing is being able to snatch walkie-talkies from defeated guards and listen in on the enemy to learn how the search is going.

I especially like the last part because that way you might be ahead of them (at least 'til they found out that one of their walkie-talkies is missing) - this basically gives you a lot of intel, a bit like the OPSAT in the classic titles.