I believe it was marketing...

They always ruin everything stupid money if there was no money life would be easier.

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Originally posted by Stealth_chill:
i agree with everything u sed except the 10th paragraph. i believe they are still trying to gain more new comers than stay with their vets. and the lack of support on these forums show that

Of course they are, when you create any product be art or physical material, you want to appeal to a mass audience I don't know any business that wants to be niche, it's simple business 101, why you would keep it to a niche is unimaginable... Where you say "i believe they are still trying to gain more new comers than stay with their vets." this is a double edged sword, because on one hand I'm a vet and I endorse new changes to the series to rejuvenate it, while you're a vet and don't like it, see how it's subjective? to generalise and say the above it doesn't always ring true.

Many who saw Resident Evil 4 before it came out had the same apprehension same complaints abotu the massive changes, so I say Stealth_Chill watch this Video with the development team of Capcom talking about RE4 before it's release especially around 1:18 and hear why they changed the series to rejuvenate it... and past that to new locations new setting and characters... Splinter Cell development team have said similar by the way, yet when I tell people this, they have a biased opinion and use the "it's a different game" defense, "how can you get bored?" well you know they spend 2-3 years on a project doing the same thing over and over again, that does get boring, we all get bored at one stage or another.

As LaurenIsSoMosh has eloquently put it, CoD4 was a great experience due to it's story and character development throughout the campaign. What happened to Jackson was so morbid and sad especially after the copter crashed, the scale of that event was gut wrenching, price's mission and back story and why Zakhaev had only one arm, to the very end battle giving it their all. It's like I've recently said about Metal Gear Solid, you've said it wasn't revoultionary, despite the fact it came out in 1998, and is the game that put stealth action on the map. But the latest incarnation has epic scale cut scenes I mean 30-60 minute long, and in those you get a HUGE about of character development, humor, and story back story and progression, it's a very complex but amazing story. Things like this have been lacking in Splinter Cell.

Honestly when I played MGS 4, I thought what would Splinter Cell be like if I replaced Solid Snake, removed the over the top Metal Gears, and slapped Ironsides voice on top? It looked like an amazing game that would get Splinter Cell nothing but a 10, and appeal to new and old SC fans, different locations some night and some day. The intricate Combat Sytem the many ways to be stealthy without touching anyone that vets on here want, and even caters to those who want action, is something Splinter Cell fans old and new want so it caters to those groups, this is without destroying the foundation of the game to make two opposites co-exist.

Instead of people thinking of a way to co-exist it must be one way or the other, regardless they will never use the other one. The other thing is story, will we see more development with Grim, Reading? They tried to do some for Lambert in SCDA, but it was very hit and miss, the way they did it in MGS 4 is that you really care about the characters, even the bad guys, you get an understanding and a perspective on why they want to do the things they want to do, most the time we only see one side of the story... even those with minor roles where good because they have a personality, they seem to have a real human element, where as in Splinter Cell, we just have a small amount of dialogue, so small it only takes a few days for Ironside to complete it, where as MGS 4 took over 6 months for voice recording, that alone shows the sheer scale that Splinter Cell lacks for story and character development IMHO.

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Originally posted by ORsaleen:
I didnt read all of the comments due to the length, but I have to say I agree with the poster. These companys are going in the wrong direction. People raved about Cod 4, yet they are going back to another WWII game. And now Splinter cell is going backwards. Sometimes I wonder about the people who make these decisions. Are they mindless idiots?

That's because Treyarch are developing it. Infinity Ward created Call of Duty 1-2 and 4, if you read up the development cycle CoD 4 was in development at the same time as CoD 5... but Infinity Ward took the big risk and changed it to a modern game while Treyarch continmued to work on WW2 hence how they can bring out a WW2 game out in less then a year from releasing COD 4, it's been in development since CoD 3. That's why there was some big rumors that Infinity Ward wanted their IP back from Activision so Treyarch couldn't touch it anymore. Think of Treyarch as Shanghai is to Splinter Cell franchise. The reception to CoD5 is mixed and many saying they will wait for another Infinity Ward game and i agree WW2 genre is worn out now, but we shall see, sales and reception should tell us if releasing a WW2 game was a good idea rather then scrapping and making another modern warfare game.

quote:

Originally posted by DixieWolf:

quote:

Originally posted by ORsaleen:
I didnt read all of the comments due to the length, but I have to say I agree with the poster. These companys are going in the wrong direction. People raved about Cod 4, yet they are going back to another WWII game. And now Splinter cell is going backwards. Sometimes I wonder about the people who make these decisions. Are they mindless idiots?

That's because Treyarch are developing it. Infinity Ward created Call of Duty 1-2 and 4, if you read up the development cycle CoD 4 was in development at the same time as CoD 5... but Infinity Ward took the big risk and changed it to a modern game while Treyarch continmued to work on WW2 hence how they can bring out a WW2 game out in less then a year from releasing COD 4, it's been in development since CoD 3. That's why there was some big rumors that Infinity Ward wanted their IP back from Activision so Treyarch couldn't touch it anymore. Think of Treyarch as Shanghai is to Splinter Cell franchise. The reception to CoD5 is mixed and many saying they will wait for another Infinity Ward game and i agree WW2 genre is worn out now, but we shall see, sales and reception should tell us if releasing a WW2 game was a good idea rather then scrapping and making another modern warfare game.

Oh it wasnt a big mystery that modern warfare is more fun than bolt action WWII weapons. I never saw it as a risk since I hated WWII anyway. I still own Cod 2 for the 360 which I have never even opened.

It was a big risk in terms of fan base acceptability, many of their loyal fans loved the WW2 genre, and I'm sure some still do. However the change from WW2 to Modern was such a drastic change in feelings and emotions. We can relate more to this "generation" then previous generations which we haven't lived in but can only read about or told from another perspective which isn't easy for many to grasp the scale of. That's where mindsets are different this generation and hence the massive appeal with Modern Warfare to something many can relate to, such as war in the middle east, terrorism, death of soldiers etc. etc.

There is nothing wrong with one or two World War games, but if you rinse and repeat over and over you're not only insulting the consumers by not doing anything but stagnation but those who actually fought in that war imho. That goes for games like BiA - Hells High Way too, it looks a great game gameplay wise but the era is past its sell by date.

I'm sorry, but I don't know how you can't see that ConViction is a game catered to the veteran demographic.

Why would the developers waste their time to make such a personal mission for Sam, for people who don't even know who he is? Why would they bother to give such a deep and emotional story to the very people that you're talking about, the ones who didn't even know there were Splinter Cell titles previous to Double Agent? What's the point of spending all that time on character development and character progression on the people who aren't going to get what's going on because they don't know what has happened to Sam previous of ConViction?

When everything is explained in the first mission, the new demographic is going to ask, "wait, who's Lambert? Who's Sarah? Who's Grim? Who is Sam for that matter?"

One of the very reasons that they're even making ConViction this personal and deep is because the veterans asked for it. They said they wanted to get to know Sam.

It's absurd to make a game like ConViction for people who aren't even going to understand it. So clearly, it wasn't made for them.

quote:

Originally posted by LaurenIsSoMosh:
I'm sorry, but I don't know how you can't see that ConViction is a game catered to the veteran demographic.

Because it's not. We veterans, like old people, like stuff to stay the same. "In my day, the Splinter Cell games weren't all dumbed down like they are now... Cut your hair, Sam, take a shower, and put on some clean clothes! You look like a hobo!"

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Why would the developers waste their time to make such a personal mission for Sam, for people who don't even know who he is? Why would they bother to give such a deep and emotional story to the very people that you're talking about, the ones who didn't even know there were Splinter Cell titles previous to Double Agent? What's the point of spending all that time on character development and character progression on the people who aren't going to get what's going on because they don't know what has happened to Sam previous of ConViction?

I doubt that will be an issue - they can sum it all up pretty easily for those who aren't already emotionally invested in the characters. And, those of us who are...have learned to deal.

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When everything is explained in the first mission, the new demographic is going to ask, "wait, who's Lambert? Who's Sarah? Who's Grim? Who is Sam for that matter?"

The new demographic is trigger happy kids - all they're going to be asking is "When can I start throwing printers?!"

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One of the very reasons that they're even making ConViction this personal and deep is because the veterans asked for it. They said they wanted to get to know Sam.

I learned more about Sam in the first book than in all of the games.

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It's absurd to make a game like ConViction for people who aren't even going to understand it.

I agree. And yet...they were. LoL

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So clearly, it wasn't made for them.

"So, clearly I cannot choose the glass in front of me..."

I don't have time to respond to this fully, I just want to say that I agree with Stealth Chill completely. Anyone hyping concraption in this forum is, as I've observed,

A) A Ubisoft apologist
B) A Ubisoft employee or community staffer
C) A new member, registration no earlier than 2007
D) All of the above

OMG, this thread has too many WORDS lol

..

quote:

C) A new member, registration no earlier than 2007

So anyone who hasn't registered on this forums before 2007 hasn't been playing SC before that moment. Interesting theory, but will not work... I know a couple of people who have played and liked, and even fanboyed the best 3 SC games without EVER registering. that was way before I registered, and I know i've played them all before registering too...

I just didn't need to register because I didn't need any help, and at the time I had no time for long conversations.

I do have the time now, but if people ask me wether someone is a 'splinter cell' vet, I will definitely NOT judge that by registration date. I've seen people registering in '08 who make more sense than, for example, someone registering in '04.

quote:

Originally posted by Metninja:
I don't have time to respond to this fully, I just want to say that I agree with Stealth Chill completely. Anyone hyping concraption in this forum is, as I've observed,

A) A Ubisoft apologist
B) A Ubisoft employee or community staffer
C) A new member, registration no earlier than 2007
D) All of the above

I joined in 2007 and Ive been playing SC since it began and I dont hype I hate ConViction.

quote:

Originally posted by CoastalGirl:
Because it's not. We veterans, like old people, like stuff to stay the same.

Veterans do make up more than one demographic, and can have multiple opinions about a certain subject. You as a veteran want it to stay the same. I as a veteran, still being young and fairly naive, am up for new adventures and different ways of thinking.

quote:

They can sum it all up pretty easily for those who aren't already emotionally invested in the characters. And, those of us who are...have learned to deal.

So you think that they decided to take this game in an entirely new direction, all just to sum it up? No, they themselves have stated that they're going to be bringing out the true Sam and building on him. There will be no short summaries or quick explanations. A lot will be explained in the first level, yes, but not quickly, and they're investing a lot of time towards developing Sam's character.

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The new demographic is trigger happy kids - all they're going to be asking is "When can I start throwing printers?!"

Despite popular opinion, just because you're new to a series does not make you young, nor does it make you immature or trigger happy.

Since everyone likes calling Sam a homeless person so much, I'm pretty sure hobo stealth training is going to be mandatory.

Sam: "I haven't been in a crowd in years."
Hobo: "Lotsa people out there, buddy. First of all, your printer should always be your last resort. And your fists. And your machine gun."

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"So, clearly I cannot choose the glass in front of me..."

Replying with nonsense Princess Bride quotes is an excellent tactic to defeat a good argument.

But unfortunately for you, I excel in nonsense and argumentation, so it's not gonna work.

---------------

Alright, continuing on...

A lot of people are saying that if it doesn't have light and shadows, it can't be Splinter Cell. I understand where you're coming from, I know what you're saying. Light and shadows are amazing and are full of memories, and nothing else can come close to that, not social stealth, not line of sight stealth, not even cyber-stalker fake identity stealth can hold a candle to light and shadows.

Yet, as Chili put it so well, All Ghillied Up is one of our favorite levels of Modern Warfare.

This is a true stealth level, a level that any Splinter Cell veteran can salute. Yet, ironically, this level is nothing like Splinter Cell. Where are all the shadows? Of all the times they could've picked to move, why pick the middle of the day? So, why do we all love this level so much?

First of all, the typical male obsession with ghillie suits may or may not be one of the biggest factors, but aside from that, it's because this is by far above and beyond some of the things that Splinter Cell has accomplished. The world of espionage and elite forces does not revolve around a few puddles of darkness, and Modern Warfare obviously took advantage of that and made an awesome level out of it.

Needless to say, if every mission of Modern Warfare had been about stealth and special forces in ghillie suits, I'm sure that not only would Chaos Theory have lost its bragging rights for achieving the highest rate ever, but Splinter Cell as a whole would have lost its place in the world of stealth-action redefined. Because not only did Modern Warfare's one mission deliver a more intense stealth experience, but there was a lot more action in it to top it off.

So let's rethink things. Let's pretend here for a second. Chili, Ern, and anyone else who wants it to go back to light and shadow: what if we saw Sam in a ghillie suit? What if there were missions where we find ourselves sitting in the middle of a field, in the middle of the day, with no shadows, but plenty of tall grass to make up for it, with nothing but your OPSAT, your silenced pistol, your trusty combat knife, and a ghillie suit? Would you still say then that Splinter Cell only belongs in the shadows? Would you still say that any other form of stealth can't be Splinter Cell? I know I wouldn't, because to me that sounds like an awesome Splinter Cell experience. Hiding in the grass, only four feet away from two terrorists who have no clue that they'll meet their end in the form of a super ninja covered in rotting vegetation.

I know that nobody wants to quit light and shadows because of reasons like, "we've tried that before and it didn't work." But, frankly, it's not that Sam doesn't belong out of the shadows, it's just that the try at bringing him out was less than half-baked. Shanghai made a good game in my honest opinion, but sadly a half-baked and underdeveloped Splinter Cell game. It's not that Sam only belongs in the darkness, it's that the first attempt to bring him out of it simply wasn't done properly.

Simply put, I have extreme faith that Montreal is going to show us that light and shadows can be topped, even for the veterans of the league. Splinter Cell is much more than three glowing eyes enveloped in complete darkness.

The reason DA didn't work was because it was a job half-done... most people like black and white, but think grey is ugly.

And the PC version didn't work because that wasn't a job.

Why compare SC with COD4 if one is a stealth tactical game while the other one is a arcade shooter sure theres a mission that requires stealth but why I ask?

You missed the point. I'm not comparing them, I'm putting Splinter Cell in a similar scenario.

Wouldn't it be awesome if Sam had a few missions in a ghillie suit? Don't you think that it would be an amazing, fresh perspective on the world of Splinter Cell's stealth tactics, sneaking around in a ghillie suit? If your answer is yes, then clearly Splinter Cell does belong in more than just light and shadows.

Sure it would be cool but anyways Sam didnt need one in the indonesian jungles he alread had his weird green suit. Well If Im right I hope that it doesnt belong to crowd stealth but more to jungle stealth. Id prefer jungle stealth. Sam also goes on missions where there is snow and sometimes there isnt really any shadows. Theres that PS2 exclusive for SC1, the Vselka DLC, OKhotksk and Iceland(not really to snowy).

quote:

Originally posted by LaurenIsSoMosh:

quote:

Originally posted by CoastalGirl:
Because it's not. We veterans, like old people, like stuff to stay the same.

Veterans do make up more than one demographic, and can have multiple opinions about a certain subject. You as a veteran want it to stay the same. I as a veteran, still being young and fairly naive, am up for new adventures and different ways of thinking.

There are two types of vets. Those like me, who really only do L&S and will fight to protect what little we have, and those like you, who can enjoy other games, regardless of genre (like that's a good thing... ).

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quote:

They can sum it all up pretty easily for those who aren't already emotionally invested in the characters. And, those of us who are...have learned to deal.

So you think that they decided to take this game in an entirely new direction, all just to sum it up? No, they themselves have stated that they're going to be bringing out the true Sam and building on him. There will be no short summaries or quick explanations. A lot will be explained in the first level, yes, but not quickly, and they're investing a lot of time towards developing Sam's character.

LoL Noooo. What I meant was, I don't think it's that big of a deal to Ubi. Excuses can be made for them, but as a game developer, their primary concern should be the gameplay.

quote:

quote:

The new demographic is trigger happy kids - all they're going to be asking is "When can I start throwing printers?!"

Despite popular opinion, just because you're new to a series does not make you young, nor does it make you immature or trigger happy.

It's not all about age, more about patience (which, IMO, does increase with maturity). It would seem that fast paced, action oriented games sell better – a lot of gamers don't seem to "get" sneaking. Since Ubi wants their money...there ya go.

quote:

Since everyone likes calling Sam a homeless person so much, I'm pretty sure hobo stealth training is going to be mandatory.

LoL "Remember Sam, people will start to notice if you smell too much. When your stink-o-meter rises too high, steal some napkins from the deli, take them to the bathroom, and clean yourself up."

quote:

Sam: "I haven't been in a crowd in years."
Hobo: "Lotsa people out there, buddy. First of all, your printer should always be your last resort. And your fists. And your machine gun."

Poor unloved Printy...

quote:

quote:

"So, clearly I cannot choose the glass in front of me..."

Replying with nonsense Princess Bride quotes is an excellent tactic to defeat a good argument.

But unfortunately for you, I excel in nonsense and argumentation, so it's not gonna work.

I've been doing nonsense arguments since before you were born.


Also, question about the "Modern Warfare" level – it's LoS, right?

But the problem with all of those missions is that despite being in a new environment, Sam is still relying on the shadows.

You can put Sam in any kind of costume you want, whether it be a funky green suit, a snowy white suit, or a pink bunny suit, but if you're still relying on shadows, then it's completely pointless.

The point of a ghillie suit, of course, would be to blend in with another source of stealth: grass, weeds, bushes, etc.

You can still rely on shadows if you need to, but the ghillie helps when there are none around and you're in tall grass.

So far they have failed to help Sam blend in with any other type of stealth source. Why put him in a white suit when they're still going to see him just as easily if he's not in a shadow anyway? Why put him in a green suit if they're still going to see him if he's not in a shadow anyway?

I remember that in PT you could hide in tall grass and no one would see you unless you were not crouched.