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Originally posted by Vth_F_Smith_:

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Would it have been bad if Conviction would be old L/S game? I doubt it.

Well some people would most likely say then "Oh look, they're pulling an EA. Another visual upgrade but still the same game. Couldn't they be a little more innovative?" which is exactly what the devs tried to avoid - THANK GOD.

EA killed Black & White (IMO, of course) with the changes they made...

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Originally posted by Vth_F_Smith_:

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Originally posted by kalle90:
Who wouldn't?

Isn't it kinda funny that the Super Smash Bros game (a title which is totally focused on martial arts styled combat) features a stealth game character like Snake but that some people are "jumping the gun", as soon as they see Sam's new hand-to-hand combat moves?

Well it seems to me his H2H took a step backward. In SCCT he could knock any one out in one hit. And as far as "jumping the gun", I am not mad at what they want to add but what they want to take away.

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Originally posted by MKCC14:
I cant believe people still have the idea that shooting propane tanks will be the only distraction in the game. I dont know if some people are trying to be sarcastic/funny or just not using common sense.

Common sense, like what would happen if you blow up a propane take in a crowded area with lots of innocent civilians walking around, or if you take a awesome game and change it so much no one can tell it apart from a million other games that are out there? Seems to me some ppl at UBI are lacking in that area as well.

First off, good work with the quoting, I knew you could do it

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Originally posted by kalle90:

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I agree with you about the CIA HQ, but the others would be a little naive to be surprised if the US was to send someone. Kalinatek was actually well aware Sam was there, as were moments of Presidential Palace. I agree with you that many missions at the beginning are a little less obvious, such as the Bank or the Police Station, but the last few missions of each game were obvious choices for intelligence work.

Someone, and somewhere. SWAT team, army, Bond? through the main door, cellar, straight bombing? At start enemies were completely clueless what might threat them and when. Sam was good way in before those "there's a spy" alarms appeared. Did Otomo know Sam and only him would and could infiltrate the ministry at that set time? No. NSA knew a lot more about ministry than ministry knew about NSA. Now Sam is the simple target for NSA and US. Sam can't really know their plans, but they have idea of Sams plans.

That's a good point, I hadn't thought of it like that. I still maintain that Sam would have been able to avoid them without completely changing his style, though.

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I would imagine it is rather easier to code someone to not be able to see through walls than to program them to not see through the dark. How many games have the AI not able to see through walls? Most. How many games have the AI not able to see in the dark? Not many, and even most of those have the vision slightly hampered instead of drastically impaired. If it isn't a major part of the game, developers tend not to put it in. Try to find an example of a game which has the mechanic, but the player neither had night/thermal vision nor was the game based around the mechanic.

True, but Ubi has mastered the L/S so it isn't about that they can't. It's just that if it's useful. Lighting effects have become more usual like many other things through gaming history. Obstacle vision has been obvious part for years and L/S will be at some point too.

I would think that too, but I do not think it is the case yet.

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Isn't it kinda funny that the Super Smash Bros game (a title which is totally focused on martial arts styled combat) features a stealth game character like Snake but that some people are "jumping the gun", as soon as they see Sam's new hand-to-hand combat moves?

I wouldn't have a problem with Sam appearing in Super Smash Bros, believe it or not... it isn't the kind of game for a fan so devoted they only allow the character to have one playstyle. After all, I wouldn't even have a problem with this game were it not a Splinter Cell game, rather a spin-off, because although it wouldn't hold much interest for me, I would be under the impression that there would be more SC games with classic SC gameplay. As it is called SC, I can see that this is probably not the case.

That would actually irk me greatly... Sam is supposed to be a stealth agent, but know he's becomeing a guy like Jason Bourne, who is elusive rather than stealthy. It's just the complete opposite of Sam's actual job, and I really don't like this new path...

Opposite? Neither wants to be seen, they have objectives and now they are in same position.

Sam as fugitive can't rely to his old gadgets, he won't have any backup, support or fool proof hideout, that means constant movement and straight fights, diversions and escapes and quick thinking and adaption. He is the same guy, just forced to different situation.

Opposite would be invincible Rambo, and Sam has parts of him too. Maybe a weak, delicate lady would be more of opposite?

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Originally posted by Kalle90: Someone, and somewhere. SWAT team, army, Bond? through the main door, cellar, straight bombing? At start enemies were completely clueless what might threat them and when. Sam was good way in before those "there's a spy" alarms appeared. Did Otomo know Sam and only him would and could infiltrate the ministry at that set time? No. NSA knew a lot more about ministry than ministry knew about NSA. Now Sam is the simple target for NSA and US. Sam can't really know their plans, but they have idea of Sams plans.

If you look at the examples you gave, those people got caught because NSA got wind of important information they wanted hidden. That's primarily the job of the NSA, information gathering and analysis, and the games tend to reflect that.

If Sam worked 'off the grid', that is didn't use electronic communications at all, then the NSA would have a very tough time finding him, since they'd have no clues to guide them.

If he makes sure he talks to contacts face to face, or using old systems of communication - dead letter drops, passed messages he'd have no problem eluding the NSA.

This has been shown in real life with the amount of problem that NATO forces in Afghanistan and Cooalition forces in Iraq have been having with intel gathering. The reason being that their enemies are aware of the sophisticated systems they have to intercept electronic communications, and are therefore resorting to more archaic methods, messengers, dead-letter drops, word of mouth.

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Originally posted by AgentXVII:

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Originally posted by Kalle90: Someone, and somewhere. SWAT team, army, Bond? through the main door, cellar, straight bombing? At start enemies were completely clueless what might threat them and when. Sam was good way in before those "there's a spy" alarms appeared. Did Otomo know Sam and only him would and could infiltrate the ministry at that set time? No. NSA knew a lot more about ministry than ministry knew about NSA. Now Sam is the simple target for NSA and US. Sam can't really know their plans, but they have idea of Sams plans.

If you look at the examples you gave, those people got caught because NSA got wind of important information they wanted hidden. That's primarily the job of the NSA, information gathering and analysis, and the games tend to reflect that.

If Sam worked 'off the grid', that is didn't use electronic communications at all, then the NSA would have a very tough time finding him, since they'd have no clues to guide them.

If he makes sure he talks to contacts face to face, or using old systems of communication - dead letter drops, passed messages he'd have no problem eluding the NSA.

This has been shown in real life with the amount of problem that NATO forces in Afghanistan and Cooalition forces in Iraq have been having with intel gathering. The reason being that their enemies are aware of the sophisticated systems they have to intercept electronic communications, and are therefore resorting to more archaic methods, messengers, dead-letter drops, word of mouth.

I'm not sure if I see the point to reply, I try.

SC1, Sam was sent to find the missing agents, after many steps he found the camera feed that caused all the events resulting to death of president of Georgia. It really was minor, somewhat lucky event.

NSA has idea of possible terrorists and their goals. Sam is no different, they know where he would logically go to achieve those goals, so they consentrate on them. Just that makes Sam's targets somewhat protected. And considering that one civilian report, camera picture or interrogation of Sam's contact can cause the never ending run. In trailer, which supposedly took place at start of game, Sam is found in bunker so every police, and so the higher players like NSA know he's in Washington. I doubt Sam could go anywhere he pleases without getting stuck. If he had to go to bank, he would be checked and seen.

Im sure he tries to work off the grid, but it isn't that easy to leave no traces in long run at all and success in his mission. Minor thing can eventually lead to failure.

Prison Break or Bourne. Huge organistation after guys who they know well. Hunted has no resources like food and weapons, no intelligence so he is very much clueless of things around and there's no place or time to rest while hunters have that all. People in Prison Break had perfect escape plan, and yet everything went bad. And they just tried to escape, whereas Sam is fighting in enemy territory.

Afganistan is territory of afganistans so it's easier to communicate with old tech withing shattered population, and overall there's much more freedom for criminals, anyone can have bomb and detonate near policesquad who have no idea who he or she might be. Sam is sorrounded by authorities and civilians who are ready to report the criminal, few people who he can trust, if any.

"Sam is sorrounded by authorities and civilians who are ready to report the criminal, few people who he can trust, if any."

Good point... In the Bourne movies, Jason is able to access old CIA equipment given to help him. Sam can't depend on his old gadgets, and has nothing else to help him, so I really don't really see why he is running. He can't really escape, because his own house is probably under quarentine, he can't use his own passport, and he probably wont be able to get any help because he has nothing to offer. Hiding wont work, and he has basicaly no resources... So the game really doesn't even make sense!

It's like Prison Break, he is running because he has no choice. There is something he is after, some conspiracy or alike. Or he wants to irritate NSA and prove their inability

He's now just a complete opposite of his previous himself. He used to enjoy full american tech and civilization, now he is Starving Marvin.

And that's just the point. A man having a desperate struggle against government. His success isn't impossible, but it's no joyride. Someone else could have done Sam's old jobs like stated in SC1, he was just one nominee as Splinter Cell, Lambert's favorite, now there's a many more. This is all Sam, time to prove if he can handle every other Splinter Cell and be the best, even without the gear. The kill of Splinter Cell on top of skyscraper was impressive, use of environment and experience and not just shiny gadgets, like Conviction.

Maybe we could consider the death of Splinter Cell at end of DA, who is killed by Sam, the end of Splinter Cells. Like Bourne ended the Tombstone operation by killing his equivalents

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Originally posted by Shadow_Agent1:
"Sam is sorrounded by authorities and civilians who are ready to report the criminal, few people who he can trust, if any."

Good point... In the Bourne movies, Jason is able to access old CIA equipment given to help him. Sam can't depend on his old gadgets, and has nothing else to help him, so I really don't really see why he is running. He can't really escape, because his own house is probably under quarentine, he can't use his own passport, and he probably wont be able to get any help because he has nothing to offer. Hiding wont work, and he has basicaly no resources... So the game really doesn't even make sense!

He does have underground contacts that he is in touch with, you know.

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Originally posted by kalle90:
NSA has idea of possible terrorists and their goals. Sam is no different, they know where he would logically go to achieve those goals, so they consentrate on them. Just that makes Sam's targets somewhat protected. And considering that one civilian report, camera picture or interrogation of Sam's contact can cause the never ending run. In trailer, which supposedly took place at start of game, Sam is found in bunker so every police, and so the higher players like NSA know he's in Washington. I doubt Sam could go anywhere he pleases without getting stuck. If he had to go to bank, he would be checked and seen.

Im sure he tries to work off the grid, but it isn't that easy to leave no traces in long run at all and success in his mission. Minor thing can eventually lead to failure.

Prison Break or Bourne. Huge organistation after guys who they know well. Hunted has no resources like food and weapons, no intelligence so he is very much clueless of things around and there's no place or time to rest while hunters have that all. People in Prison Break had perfect escape plan, and yet everything went bad. And they just tried to escape, whereas Sam is fighting in enemy territory.

Afganistan is territory of afganistans so it's easier to communicate with old tech withing shattered population, and overall there's much more freedom for criminals, anyone can have bomb and detonate near policesquad who have no idea who he or she might be. Sam is sorrounded by authorities and civilians who are ready to report the criminal, few people who he can trust, if any.

You're assuming Sam would be stupid enough to go for the targets they expect him to. This whole thing is about proving how good Sam Fisher is at what he does. He'll know the sorts of methods the NSA will expect him to use, and subvert them. I imagine he's accessing a server in Washington Park because its an access point they're not expecting him to use.

They might find out he's in Washington, but I doubt he's going to be in Washington for long. He'll keep moving, keep them guessing, just like Jason Bourne does.

You seem very defeatist about this whole thing. Your argument is like saying for the first game:

"He's operating in a hostile country against the odds. One little mistake and he could be killed or captured, and then it's over."

I imagine that avoiding the sorts of things you've mentioned (The NSA looking for you, civilians identifying you, being caught travelling) will be part of the challenge of the game.

You've got to remember that the old methods I described were used very successfully in the USA by Russian agents during the cold war. And that's a period where people were looking out for that sort of thing. Today internal security focuses heavily on wiretaps, communications intercepts, lots of ways of eavesdropping on technological communications methods. Using older methods would be a good way for Sam to stay off NSA radar.

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Originally posted by AgentXVII:

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Originally posted by kalle90:
NSA has idea of possible terrorists and their goals. Sam is no different, they know where he would logically go to achieve those goals, so they consentrate on them. Just that makes Sam's targets somewhat protected. And considering that one civilian report, camera picture or interrogation of Sam's contact can cause the never ending run. In trailer, which supposedly took place at start of game, Sam is found in bunker so every police, and so the higher players like NSA know he's in Washington. I doubt Sam could go anywhere he pleases without getting stuck. If he had to go to bank, he would be checked and seen.

Im sure he tries to work off the grid, but it isn't that easy to leave no traces in long run at all and success in his mission. Minor thing can eventually lead to failure.

Prison Break or Bourne. Huge organistation after guys who they know well. Hunted has no resources like food and weapons, no intelligence so he is very much clueless of things around and there's no place or time to rest while hunters have that all. People in Prison Break had perfect escape plan, and yet everything went bad. And they just tried to escape, whereas Sam is fighting in enemy territory.

Afganistan is territory of afganistans so it's easier to communicate with old tech withing shattered population, and overall there's much more freedom for criminals, anyone can have bomb and detonate near policesquad who have no idea who he or she might be. Sam is sorrounded by authorities and civilians who are ready to report the criminal, few people who he can trust, if any.

You're assuming Sam would be stupid enough to go for the targets they expect him to. This whole thing is about proving how good Sam Fisher is at what he does. He'll know the sorts of methods the NSA will expect him to use, and subvert them. I imagine he's accessing a server in Washington Park because its an access point they're not expecting him to use.

They might find out he's in Washington, but I doubt he's going to be in Washington for long. He'll keep moving, keep them guessing, just like Jason Bourne does.

You seem very defeatist about this whole thing. Your argument is like saying for the first game:

"He's operating in a hostile country against the odds. One little mistake and he could be killed or captured, and then it's over."

I imagine that avoiding the sorts of things you've mentioned (The NSA looking for you, civilians identifying you, being caught travelling) will be part of the challenge of the game.

You've got to remember that the old methods I described were used very successfully in the USA by Russian agents during the cold war. And that's a period where people were looking out for that sort of thing. Today internal security focuses heavily on wiretaps, communications intercepts, lots of ways of eavesdropping on technological communications methods. Using older methods would be a good way for Sam to stay off NSA radar.

I am not saying Sam is stupid. Surely he tries to stay hidden and do the unexpected. NSA and US just have huge resources to put against him. Sam doesn't really know what are NSA's plans and ways to chase him. Easiest thing would be to walk to Redding's office and make him talk but Sam can't do that, he has to find alternate, safer, ways and he has no clear knowledge what those might be. He has always been supplied with releated info by Grim and NSA, now he must think of his own.

If he's missions are in Washington, he will stay there as long as he needs. He can't hide in some forest any more than he can senselessly run around world.

I consider this mission much more dangerous and risky than any other of Sam's mission has been, it's personal now, nobody can jump in his shoes. He is no ways beaten, though. I expect him to win, in the end.

How much Sam can do without getting to contact with technology? He has few contacts he can trust, if any. Russians were big fleet and people were splitted to US and Rus supporters, even inside the countries, I don't believe many are ready to stand for Sam, who is just a fugitive. He doesn't have much resources to help him on his own, that's why he must use environment and physical power like never before. He must go go to places he can accomplish is objectives, and usually they are sorrounded by police and civilians. One civilian report can mean capture or death of Sam, he can't just run around corner and call extraction. There's actual consequenses, usually neutral or bad. Getting past one guard isn't worth cheering, next one might mean his doom. Like Prison Break, 10 well ended events can be flushed away with 1, single event, and hell breaks loose.

I see that all the fun and challenge come from the fight of Sam and the mysterious, huge enemy. Washington park is just the first destination, he only gets closer the enemy from there on.

Actually, are you agreeing or disagreeing with me? Or both?

If Sam isn't stupid, than why is he running? He can't use passports, he knows how well CIA could find him because the NSA doesn't operate in the US, unless, I suppose, they had too... But really, Sam doesn't actually havea chance of escapeing, when he can't even leave the US! This game has no point, because Sam has no where to hide; all he can dp is run until he dies, and I don't think he wants to do that... I'm still having trouble understanding the actual storyline!

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Originally posted by Shadow_Agent1:
If Sam isn't stupid, than why is he running? He can't use passports, he knows how well CIA could find him because the NSA doesn't operate in the US, unless, I suppose, they had too... But really, Sam doesn't actually havea chance of escapeing, when he can't even leave the US! This game has no point, because Sam has no where to hide; all he can dp is run until he dies, and I don't think he wants to do that... I'm still having trouble understanding the actual storyline!

I think what they want is for Sam to prove corruption in the NSA and some how that is suppose to clear his name. I agree that he would really have no way of escaping. When series like this go on for a long time the characters/writers can become arrogant and it loses its charm. A lot of SciFi shows end up that way.

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Originally posted by Shadow_Agent1:
If Sam isn't stupid, than why is he running? He can't use passports, he knows how well CIA could find him because the NSA doesn't operate in the US, unless, I suppose, they had too... But really, Sam doesn't actually havea chance of escapeing, when he can't even leave the US! This game has no point, because Sam has no where to hide; all he can dp is run until he dies, and I don't think he wants to do that... I'm still having trouble understanding the actual storyline!

You should understand more if you buy the game and find out what happens. Some games dont explain every little detail until you play it and find out why this happened, whats going on, etc. I believe it is much better this way so there will be some form of surprise.

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Originally posted by Shadow_Agent1:
If Sam isn't stupid, than why is he running? He can't use passports, he knows how well CIA could find him because the NSA doesn't operate in the US, unless, I suppose, they had too... But really, Sam doesn't actually havea chance of escapeing, when he can't even leave the US! This game has no point, because Sam has no where to hide; all he can dp is run until he dies, and I don't think he wants to do that... I'm still having trouble understanding the actual storyline!

NSA doesn't have skeletons in closet? Bourne manages to run. Maybe Sam retreats to some cave in middle of jungle and grows a beard to live in, and we see growing old there.

Why don't people want challenge? Previously Sam was pretty small pawn in winning team, no he is opposite. Im sure there will be story, likely better than so far.

The story is only there to drive the game play. We could do with out the story but its not a game with out game play. The gameplay is more important that is where they need to focus and make the story after the gameplay is firmly established.

I still don't see Conviction being that far from Splinter Cell's roots. It's early to say anything, but I see the same basics with lots of welcomed improvements and changes, still it looks and seems Splinter Cell. Like I said elsewhere, is this bigger evolution, or revolution?

Story is as important as gameplay, it is what drives me to play the game. Completely getting rid of DA story would make Splinter Cell a no Splinter Cell, more than one might be affair could do, like I earlier said, too. Tomb Raider died after doing it, Lara suddenly died in Last Revolution without any believable way to be revived, Chronicles worked as great memorial and real ending. I loved the series to that point, then they said Angel of Darkness appears, which sucked in every way. Then we got Legends and Anniversary which are great games, but I have none of that old excitement left. They don't feel the old Tomb Raider at all, althought gameplay is very similiar. In these kind of games (Tomb Raider, Splinter Cell, Max Payne) story is vital, sports, fighters and such are different thing.

At this point I see story and gameplay having perfect balance and logic. No severe problems at all.

Still, it's early.

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Originally posted by kalle90:
I still don't see Conviction being that far from Splinter Cell's roots. It's early to say anything, but I see the same basics with lots of welcomed improvements and changes, still it looks and seems Splinter Cell. Like I said elsewhere, is this bigger evolution, or revolution?

Story is as important as gameplay, it is what drives me to play the game. Completely getting rid of DA story would make Splinter Cell a no Splinter Cell, more than one might be affair could do, like I earlier said, too. Tomb Raider died after doing it, Lara suddenly died in Last Revolution without any believable way to be revived, Chronicles worked as great memorial and real ending. I loved the series to that point, then they said Angel of Darkness appears, which sucked in every way. Then we got Legends and Anniversary which are great games, but I have none of that old excitement left. They don't feel the old Tomb Raider at all, althought gameplay is very similiar. In these kind of games (Tomb Raider, Splinter Cell, Max Payne) story is vital, sports, fighters and such are different thing.

At this point I see story and gameplay having perfect balance and logic. No severe problems at all.

Still, it's early.

No problems? What about what Sam is actually trying to accomplish? Does it even seem possible? What about Lambert? Is he dead or not? Should SCE even be taken into effefct? what about the dropping of several charactors? What about the actual plot? What is Sam doing that is so wrong? What is he actually trying to do? Does this game acutally make sense?

I think there are a couple problems involved with this... And the gameplay, it's going to be way too easy. Yes, it IS very early to say that the game will work, and it's not too early to say that there are problems; that is already evident...