quote:

Originally posted by Woosy:

You disagree, but then prove my point by saying... "it's the basic structure for sneaking in the SC-series." which is my point! It is used for navigation,

I don't prove your point. I never said L&S isn't used for navigation, I'm saying it is much more than that. Good, we can both agree that L&S is the basis for sneaking around and being stealthy in SC. You, however, stated that it is nothing more than a tool for navigaton - and I disagree (strongly, as it were). You should allow for this difference of opinion without trying to twist my argument into something it isn't.

I do allow for difference of opinion, the way it came out is the reason for my response, because it does back up my point. It is a moot point if you can be sneaky in the shadow, my whole point is, that without the shadow you cannot move forward, how can i move forward? Well I can't be seen can I? This allows me to navigate and progress. If you where seen in the shadow you couldn't move forward could you? \Hence then it couldn't be called a navigation system. That is how the mechanic works. In ConViction they replaced L&D navigation mechanic with the crowd, and like the light source can be manipulated like you would to create a shadow. Or in ConmViction what we've seen you either do that by using them or creating distractions to navigate and progress, but there seems to be more options then that.

quote:

Originally posted by Woosy:
I do allow for difference of opinion, the way it came out is the reason for my response, because it does back up my point.

No, it doesn't back up your point unless your point is convergent with mine: L&S is a lot more than simply a method of navigation.

quote:

Originally posted by Woosy:
It is a moot point if you can be sneaky in the shadow, my whole point is, that without the shadow you cannot move forward, how can i move forward? Well I can't be seen can I? This allows me to navigate and progress. If you where seen in the shadow you couldn't move forward could you? \Hence then it couldn't be called a navigation system. That is how the mechanic works.

Yes, I never said otherwise.

quote:

Originally posted by Woosy:
In ConViction they replaced L&D navigation mechanic with the crowd, and like the light source can be manipulated like you would to create a shadow. Or in ConmViction what we've seen you either do that by using them or creating distractions to navigate and progress, but there seems to be more options then that.

Well ok, like we all know, there's a new crowd mechanic that's going to be implemented in SCC allowing, or better perhaps forcing, you to navigate and progress in a different manner than the previous SC-games. There's hardly any arguing this, talk about your moot points. I still haven't seen a convincing argument from you as to why you feel L&S is *simply* a tool for navigation. My argument still stands: for me and I suspect many fans that have been playing SC from the beginning, this core mechanic is a huge part of the entire SC-experience which involves a great deal more than the rather prosaic navigation from A to B.

quote:

Originally posted by CoastalGirl:

quote:

Originally posted by Vth_F_Smith_:

quote:

Originally posted by CoastalGirl:

quote:

Originally posted by Vth_F_Smith_:
Wait a sec! My beard (and my new glasses) are gone?

You could try Future Butters...he's kinda scruffy.

But I'm not scruffy - I only have this "Musketeer style beard".

Meh - hair is hair.

quote:

Originally posted by kalle90:
How many Splinter Cells you seriously would buy if it would evolve like first 3 did compared to each other?

If they were L&S, I'd buy as many as they put out.

I've got six SC's, four other L&S games, and a LoS that plays like a L&S. So, I'm already up to 11, and I'm nowhere near tired of it. If you are that's fine, but there are a lot of other games out there for you to play. That's not so with me.

So you buy games because of single feature? I fell in love with Splinter Cell because it looked and sounded good, levels were interesting, gameplay was realistic, new and variable... I didn't look the L/S meter and thought "wow i will buy everything with this"

I like to play different games. I don't fill shelves with FPSs, Sports, Adventure or anything else. I just buy different type quality games.

Problem isn't particulary the L/S gameplay, i love the game including it and believe its somehow still in. But when the whole game just keeps still then i get bored. If there is no way to make game new then we just have to change the basic. What can Splinter cell possibly provide if it's same game with different levels? Eventually everyone would get tired. Something will either surpass, or people just can't take the 70€, short, repetive game anymore and buy something else instead.

I could say Splinter Cell died to me during Pandora Tomorrow. It was real dissapointment, fortunately Chaos Theory managed to refresh series enough to good way so i was in action again. But how to really improve from CT? Ubi would balance on knife if they'd just do another update game after another. And this kind of sandbox game can't work without crowd system. Sure some basic L/S feature should be there, Sam doesn't have his suit with sensors. Still, I should be harder to see in darkness. But if there's day and i have to get through city I can't just stand in that dark alley.

quote:

Originally posted by kalle90: Problem isn't particulary the L/S gameplay, i love the game including it and believe its somehow still in. But when the whole game just keeps still then i get bored. If there is no way to make game new then we just have to change the basic. What can Splinter cell possibly provide if it's same game with different levels? Eventually everyone would get tired. Something will either surpass, or people just can't take the 70€, short, repetive game anymore and buy something else instead.

Now, that is an argument that's starting to get repetetive. It's already been argued numerous times that there are a multitude of ways in which the core gameplay of LS can be enhanced and developed. And people don't necessarily get tired if they are offered the same goodies again and again. It's almost 15 years since Id released Doom, yet millions of people are still playing FPS. Why doesn't the same apply to LS-based gameplay?

quote:

Originally posted by Georg_Maximus:
Why doesn't the same apply to LS-based gameplay?

Because LS-based gameplay is much more complex than a run 'n gun game like Doom. It's like comparing Tetris to Pong. They're not even part of the same genre and the same goes to LS-based games and shooters like Doom.

Which abilities do you really need in order to play Doom? You need to jump, run and shoot maybe even time your actions with spawning items. And which ones do you need in LS-based games like for example SCCT?

You need to:

• plan & coordinate your actions
• cooperate with your teammate (AI or in terms of multiplayer non-AI)
• move silently
• make sure you're in a dark area
• make sure you deactivate your gadgets as soon as you see the Merc activating EMF vision (in MP)
• time you actions
• use the right gadget at the right time
• distract the enemy

While this isn't meant in any offensive way, LS-based games are much more complex than a simple shooter.

Reading Georg_Maximus' entire post leads me to believe that what he means is that the same in fact *does* apply to L&S-based gameplay, in other words a rethorical question. In any event Smith, your reply is nonsensical. Because of the fact that the gameplay is much more complex one should tire of it? Where is the reasoning behind that?

quote:

Originally posted by Georg_Maximus:

quote:

Originally posted by kalle90: Problem isn't particulary the L/S gameplay, i love the game including it and believe its somehow still in. But when the whole game just keeps still then i get bored. If there is no way to make game new then we just have to change the basic. What can Splinter cell possibly provide if it's same game with different levels? Eventually everyone would get tired. Something will either surpass, or people just can't take the 70€, short, repetive game anymore and buy something else instead.

Now, that is an argument that's starting to get repetetive. It's already been argued numerous times that there are a multitude of ways in which the core gameplay of LS can be enhanced and developed. And people don't necessarily get tired if they are offered the same goodies again and again. It's almost 15 years since Id released Doom, yet millions of people are still playing FPS. Why doesn't the same apply to LS-based gameplay?

Think the jump of Doom to Quake2, Quake2 to Goldeneye and Perfect Dark, jump from those to Halo and CoD. Huge. Would we play the original Doom with slight graphic and weapon boost? Splinter Cell multiplayer is far from best possible, but who doesnt enjoy beating people in Tekken or SSB or killing people in Halo? So simple yet so exciting.

Splinter Cell was the first succesful L/S title and overall 2nd if we count MSG. Now Splinter Cells have changed very little, better environment, new gadgets and moves whereas few are taken off. No revolution. This leads us back to FPS comparison. Doom was huge on its birth, what was Doom 3? Trash compared to Halo and CoD for example.

And Social stealth genre is at its first steps. AC is the only one currently, right? Splinter Cell can suck so much out of this.

I don't say moving from L/S to Social while completely getting rid from L/S is good, that's bad. But i just watched the gameplay demo and "what was his name" said there will be some L/S feat. We just don't have the suit so we can't automatically rely to meter. Plus we must get to differnet places in crowded city, sometimes in middle day. Its a tactic, but not the entire game.

I would love to have atleast L/S, sound, social stealth, all moves from all 4 Splinter Cells (SWAT turn would often be useful) plus new ones like the fighting system, all imaginable and useful gadgets Sam can stylishly carry, plus huge pretty levels filled with smart AI and interactionable environment. And the best possible graphics, musics, sounds and the story.

We might never get all those. But now we are atleast heading towards it.

quote:

Originally posted by marinius:
Reading Georg_Maximus' entire post leads me to believe that what he means is that the same in fact *does* apply to L&S-based gameplay, in other words a rethorical question. In any event Smith, your reply is nonsensical. Because of the fact that the gameplay is much more complex one should tire of it? Where is the reasoning behind that?

I simply tried to point out, that you need much more time to master a LS-based game than you do in a typical shooter, that's why a lot of people are still playing FPS like Doom. Doom never get's boring because you simply don't need much to play it - the learning curve couldn't be lower (and because it's much longer out than LS-based games).

quote:

Originally posted by Vth_F_Smith_:

quote:

Originally posted by marinius:
Reading Georg_Maximus' entire post leads me to believe that what he means is that the same in fact *does* apply to L&S-based gameplay, in other words a rethorical question. In any event Smith, your reply is nonsensical. Because of the fact that the gameplay is much more complex one should tire of it? Where is the reasoning behind that?

I simply tried to point out, that you need much more time to master a LS-based game than you do in a typical shooter, that's why a lot of people are still playing FPS like Doom. Doom never get's boring because you simply don't need much to play it (and because it's much longer out than LS-based Multiplayers).

I got the point you were trying to make. However, I don't see why, after you've grown to like a certain style of play - such as L&S, you would grow tired of it because of its complexity. Though I can certainly see why people who like run 'n gun never would get into SC in the first place.

quote:

Originally posted by kalle90:
Think the jump of Doom to Quake2, Quake2 to Goldeneye and Perfect Dark, jump from those to Halo and CoD. Huge.

Splinter Cell was the first succesful L/S title and overall 2nd if we count MSG. Now Splinter Cells have changed very little, better environment, new gadgets and moves whereas few are taken off. No revolution. This leads us back to FPS comparison. Doom was huge on its birth, what was Doom 3? Trash compared to Halo and CoD for example.

Doom 3, Quake 5 and Halo 3 wasn't thrash. The fanbase enjoyed the two first quite a lot despite mediocre reviews, and Halo 3 was received with standing ovations among fans and reviewers alike. Yet how did they differ from the original FPSs like Doom, except for improved graphics? Very little. Which proves my point: you don't need to change the core gameplay to keep the players interested. It's an post hoc claim whose purpose is to warrant the changes already announced, not something that the gaming community asked for prior to SCC's development.

quote:

Originally posted by Georg_Maximus:

quote:

Originally posted by kalle90:
Think the jump of Doom to Quake2, Quake2 to Goldeneye and Perfect Dark, jump from those to Halo and CoD. Huge.

Splinter Cell was the first succesful L/S title and overall 2nd if we count MSG. Now Splinter Cells have changed very little, better environment, new gadgets and moves whereas few are taken off. No revolution. This leads us back to FPS comparison. Doom was huge on its birth, what was Doom 3? Trash compared to Halo and CoD for example.

Doom 3, Quake 5 and Halo 3 wasn't thrash. The fanbase enjoyed the two first quite a lot despite mediocre reviews, and Halo 3 was received with standing ovations among fans and reviewers alike. Yet how did they differ from the original FPSs like Doom, except for improved graphics? Very little. Which proves my point: you don't need to change the core gameplay to keep the players interested. It's an post hoc claim whose purpose is to warrant the changes already announced, not something that the gaming community asked for prior to SCC's development.

I only referred to Doom 3 as trash. 99% of people rather play Halo3 than Doom1. And theres no difference bethween Halo3 and Doom1? Give me a break; vehicles, melee, variable balanced weapon set, huge community, actual story... All the huge breakthroughs Splinter Cell is now trying to achieve. And i don't buy FPS that doesn't have anyhting new any more than i buy sneaking game wihout new features.

No matter what kind of FPS you make people will likely like it. Just quick free movement and ability to beat people thrills, same for fighting games like Tekken or SSB. Splinter Cell is much more complicated, not many seem to like the spy vs spy game althought that is the simple one.

Lets be honest here. Multiplayer wise any Halo kicks any Splinter Cells ass without a word. Solo mode isn't that simple. But if i have to choose Halo map pack, or Splinter Cell map pack choice is clearly Halo.

Did you read the end of my post. I have huge list to welcomes and hope there will be the perfect game. Sure Splinter Cell could stay exactly the same first 3 games were, but then i would soon have to find some other game.

Why people like meat more than vegetables? Because meat is older? No. Because its in out head. Like difference bethween FPS and L/S. Crude example

And why we are arguing about this. Splinter Cell is going to change, that's just great. But it shouldn't change to worse. I don't believe its going to worse. After all we still have some L/S and sound stealth combined with social stealth, old actions combined with new ones etc.

quote:

Multiplayer wise any Halo kicks any Splinter Cells ass without a word

Actually SCCT was played more online than some Halo at some point. I don't play consoles, so I think it's Halo2. Not sure.

kalle90 .. all of your posts are nonsense because THERE WILL BE NO LIGHT & SHADOW STEALTH AT ALL. This was stated by the developers themselves.

You wrote:
"I don't say moving from L/S to Social while completely getting rid from L/S is good, that's bad."
Indeed, it's bad, but that's how it is.

quote:

Originally posted by Woosy:
It depends which repititive lines? The tramps? or beggars should I say, their one liners was annoying lol but realistic!

Actually, I was talking about what the citizens say after you've saved them. There's about six lines between them.

quote:

Originally posted by Woosy:
I do allow for difference of opinion, the way it came out is the reason for my response, because it does back up my point. It is a moot point if you can be sneaky in the shadow, my whole point is, that without the shadow you cannot move forward, how can i move forward? Well I can't be seen can I? This allows me to navigate and progress. If you where seen in the shadow you couldn't move forward could you? \Hence then it couldn't be called a navigation system. That is how the mechanic works. In ConViction they replaced L&D navigation mechanic with the crowd, and like the light source can be manipulated like you would to create a shadow. Or in ConmViction what we've seen you either do that by using them or creating distractions to navigate and progress, but there seems to be more options then that.

I'm not going to argue about needing the shadows to move forward. But, like others have said, it's a lot more than that to me. To me, the shadows give the game the atmosphere. Crowds don’t.
Sure, if Ubi tried, I bet they could make the crowd work like a shadow. But, I'd still be out in the open, surrounded by people... Maybe that's atmospheric to some people, but not to me. I want to be alone, hiding in shadows. Period.

quote:

Originally posted by kalle90:
So you buy games because of single feature?

LoL If it's the feature I want, absolutely. I'm not a part of the masses; I'm not fickle.

quote:

Originally posted by Vth_F_Smith_:
Which abilities do you really need in order to play Doom?

Back when it first came out, I needed to have a father who knew someone who worked on it, who could give me all the cheats.

quote:

Originally posted by Vth_F_Smith_:
Doom never get's boring because you simply don't need much to play it - the learning curve couldn't be lower

That was mean.

Halo 1 set the ground work and plot, Halo2 improved it by a long shot, half way through the game you're playing as the enemy to see another perspective to the story arc. Something not in the first game, the third game was totally improved so many new things it was untrue, new vehicles and weapons not seen in previous titles, new enemies, and a conclusion to the story. It was designed as a trilogy. If there is to be another Halo after this it will have the same Master Cheif, but not a simple rehash.

Doom and Doom3 way different so different infact it's hard to compare them lol. Doom 1 you would just play as DoomGuy, thats his name, and you fight on Mars to prevent the demons leaking to Earth. Thats the story, and you simply blast anything that moves, and if it doesn't move blast it till it does. Doom3 reinvented the game, now it's a horror/thriller with things jumping out of you, improved graphics and gameplay, both games are so different that the only reminicent is a few weapons. It's best to call them individual games just associated by name. There was alot in Doom3 no one had ever seen before at the time and changed how the horror genre was played and inspired others. That is far better then giving it better graphics similar designed levels and mindless fights.

Resident Evil, I love the series, first 3 games, exactly the same but little refinements, and more things you could do with customisation, but it generally new with the story, weapons and enemy. It's a complex game, although many did commplain of lack of imagination as it was a prequel. You then had Resident Evil 4 evolve the gameplay so much that it doesn't look like a resident evil game exception to the zombies, if you didn't know about it.

What about Resident Evil Outbreak File #2? Changed the entire concept and game mechanics altogether, you played as either 4 characters each with different strenghs and weaknesses. You could go online and play with others, something not available with other games. You could share items, you could hide under beds in lockers, board up doors with wood or hold the door so zombies couldn't get in. If your friend was low on health you could go wrap their arm around your shoulder and make them move faster. And get this!! If you died you would become a zombie, and you could control it and go eat your friends if you wanted. So many changes in that game that it was amazing, so much fun, i'm sure I missed a ton of innovations in that game aswell. Many want to see another outbreak file because what capcom do is really push boundaries, If I where to ask for better graphics and similar gameplay i don't think I could ask for anything better.

So many other titles that have changed over the years greatly Final Fantasy, Metal Gear solid, Mario, Zelda improving and innovating, keeping the game and genre constantly evolving and not just a new coat of paint.

quote:

Lets be honest here. Multiplayer wise any Halo kicks any Splinter Cells ass without a word. Solo mode isn't that simple. But if i have to choose Halo map pack, or Splinter Cell map pack choice is clearly Halo

This is one of the reasons, me and my friends have come to that releasing a Multiplayer game is really silly for developers as it's too constricted in the marketplace. People will be stuck on COD4 and Halo 3 for years, heck people are still playing Halo 1 in huge numbers.

quote:

Originally posted by scworld:

quote:

Multiplayer wise any Halo kicks any Splinter Cells ass without a word

Actually SCCT was played more online than some Halo at some point. I don't play consoles, so I think it's Halo2. Not sure.

Halo1? Or Halo3 or 2 now when they are down

quote:

all of your posts are nonsense because THERE WILL BE NO LIGHT & SHADOW STEALTH AT ALL. This was stated by the developers themselves.

You wrote:
"I don't say moving from L/S to Social while completely getting rid from L/S is good, that's bad."
Indeed, it's bad, but that's how it is.

So many things to reply. There clearly is lot of darkness, not so much we can't see, but there is. Video clearly says few parts of L/S will be there. If it even affects to enemy ability to notice me I'd happy, maybe pretty useless for progressing the game but still. None of you talk about sound stealth, it was in 1st game althought there wasn't any meter bar. You claim that there is no noise stealth in Conviction? Then why police go to check exploded propane tanks? Or when i throw cans around? Will there be social stealth meter and is noice included to it? Must there be a clear bar for everything. I'd like to be fugitive and so pretty unsure about sorroundings.

quote:

LoL If it's the feature I want, absolutely. I'm not a part of the masses; I'm not fickle.

Single feature decides whatever you buy or not . Haha. Not my fault or problem, luckily.

quote:

This is one of the reasons, me and my friends have come to that releasing a Multiplayer game is really silly for developers as it's too constricted in the marketplace. People will be stuck on COD4 and Halo 3 for years, heck people are still playing Halo 1 in huge numbers.

What would Splinter Cell be if there wouldn't be effort for the 4 or 6 player bad looking Multiplayer? All the multiplayers of them are already dead, why bother if you can't fight against better games.

Atleast the only thing i am wanting to include is the limited L/S and sound stealth, so im pretty safe in dark corners, thats enough to make me feel comfortable. No need to change the entire game to Splinter Cell Chaos Theory Replay.

Lot better quote system. In Bungie forums i would have killed myself having to type all those quotes.

quote:

Originally posted by kalle90:

quote:

LoL If it's the feature I want, absolutely. I'm not a part of the masses; I'm not fickle.

Single feature decides whatever you buy or not . Haha. Not my fault or problem, luckily.

Hm, I don't recall blaming you, nor saying that my love of L&S gameplay was a "problem" you needed to deal with. Unless you're one of them...

The fact of the matter is, I'm consistent, and as a result, easy to please. Ubi focusing on the finicky is just silly - they're burning bridges that they don't need to burn.

quote:

Originally posted by CoastalGirl:

quote:

Originally posted by kalle90:

quote:

LoL If it's the feature I want, absolutely. I'm not a part of the masses; I'm not fickle.

Single feature decides whatever you buy or not . Haha. Not my fault or problem, luckily.

Hm, I don't recall blaming you, nor saying that my love of L&S gameplay was a "problem" you needed to deal with. Unless you're one of them...

The fact of the matter is, I'm consistent, and as a result, easy to please. Ubi focusing on the finicky is just silly - they're burning bridges that they don't need to burn.

Not my problem, yes.

They are changing the game because they are trying to extinguish the bridge on which i am standing on I don't like 0.1 updates. I want more, atleast with this price and rate of new Splinter Cell games. This shouldn't be NHL or FIFA, which i buy like once in 7 years.

I'd thought that people would appreciate that somehing changes in this time of clone games . Ubi just happens to be in the more new creating category.