I've played all the games, but always found the MP very hard to grasp (even though I wanted to). The learning curve was kinda steep.

Then when DA came out, it was much less daunting, so I was able to really enjoyed it. It allowed me to get into this type of MP gameplay. Now I am able to tackle a more complicated version (ala PT & CT).

I'm also one who had faith in Mathieu Ferland and his 2007 idea before everyone whined and complained. I'm willing to try new ideas, especially since he was behind the original & Chaos Theory.

I was a little miffed when I realized he is no longer part of Conviction. Is Beland responsible for the direction of the game now the way Ferland was? Or was Ferland more of a designer & Beland a producer?

Final though - I'm excited for Conviction and want the more action oriented and speed stuff, but hopefully they don't remove as much of the previous stealth stuff as everyone is claiming.

Thanks

quote:

Originally posted by kevinpage123:
hopefully they don't remove as much of the previous stealth stuff as everyone is claiming.

Thanks

It's gone, long gone. So don't get your hopes up...

Well, until I hear confirmation of such and not just rampant speculation I'm not going to get my panties in a bind.

I'm not that upset/annoyed over no dragging bodies and stuff like that. But hopefully they will have non lethal takeouts and some of the gadgets.

I don't need it as chock full as previous games, but all the naysayers are making this game out to be a "run and gun shooter" and the greatest travesty against mankind.

they do have sonar goggles and the sticky camera and also i think it was flash or emp grenade. I also heard you cant KO but you can certainly use stealth and sneak through the levels.

i trust ubisoft more than eny other company
i splinter cell games all of them (and double agent) and i bealive the game will be good there will be stealth and i trust that mp will shock me

That's some pretty blind faith, but is their any other kind?

I find it funny that when defending the stealth aspect, people bring up the things like the sonar goggles, sticky cam, flash bangs, and emp grenades. Aren't these all things that basically existed before in the previous games? Yeah sonar is new, but it's pretty much just a combo of night/thermal. All the new stuff are tactical in nature (M&E, LKP, krav maga, etc.), which seems to change the game's purpose dramatically.

How can you stealth a level when apparently there's an interrogation every hour?

But, in terms of DOuble Agent MP, I thought it was OK (didn't live up to previous versions) if a little too biased to the mercs, IMO.

quote:

Originally posted by sammyboy1981:
That's some pretty blind faith, but is their any other kind?

I find it funny that when defending the stealth aspect, people bring up the things like the sonar goggles, sticky cam, flash bangs, and emp grenades. Aren't these all things that basically existed before in the previous games? Yeah sonar is new, but it's pretty much just a combo of night/thermal. All the new stuff are tactical in nature (M&E, LKP, krav maga, etc.), which seems to change the game's purpose dramatically.

How can you stealth a level when apparently there's an interrogation every hour?

But, in terms of DOuble Agent MP, I thought it was OK (didn't live up to previous versions) if a little too biased to the mercs, IMO.

However, the "tactical" or "agressive" side of things is where SC could have always used the most improvement. Most of us here pretty much agree that after CT, it is hard to improve on the fantastic stealth aspects of the game. Now imagine if they upped the agressive parts enough that getting discovered wasn't "mission over" or "reload the save because I really don't want to sneak past more-alert guards with body armor" time -- but rather getting discovered simply meant you had to make a dramatic shift in tactics to stay alive? At the end of the day, that's all I've really seen in the new build.

Stealth is still there and gameplay is still unique. Now getting seen means you have to get violent though (or you have the tools to start violence yourself and survive). I never heard anyone complain about the shotgun or sniper atachments in CT, or the frag grenades and mines that have been in every game thus far, despite them being far from stealthy. If anything, they were celebrated (both among fans and critics) because they finially gave Sam more "teeth" rather than being a guy with a bunch of cool acrobatics who could barely aim a weapon in a fire-fight (and forced the games into an archaic trial-and-error routine that most developers abandoned in the mid 90's).

So long as they don't "break" the stealth, I don't care if they "add" to the agressive. If anything, I support it. They might be taking away some stealth options (i.e. moving bodies) -- but in the end the little details like that never really bothered me. So long as the core stealth mechanic is satisfying and fitting to the SC universe, I will be happy. Anything else they add past that point only helps, as it gives the player more options and freedom (whether it be M&E, CQB moves, or new gizmos -- I don't care).

As for DA's MP, I still play it, and have a lot of fun with it. I like that it throws old tactics from CT out the window and forces players to adopt new strategies, and for the spies team work is now essential, rather than just recomended. As much fun as PT and CT were, it was really nice to see it mixed up for the third go-round (even if a bunch of people haven't stopped complaining since).

quote:

Originally posted by kevinpage123:
I've played all the games, but always found the MP very hard to grasp (even though I wanted to). The learning curve was kinda steep.

Then when DA came out, it was much less daunting, so I was able to really enjoyed it. It allowed me to get into this type of MP gameplay. Now I am able to tackle a more complicated version (ala PT & CT).

A very interesting statement. Would you say, the PT and CT multiplayer would have been more easy to learn, if they would have started with a DA version first and then gradually 'unlock' additional moves / gadgets the longer you play and the more experienced you get?

Personally, I liked a few of the new elements of the SCDA multiplayer, for example the new hacking tool or the recon drone.

quote:

I'm also one who had faith in Mathieu Ferland and his 2007 idea before everyone whined and complained. I'm willing to try new ideas, especially since he was behind the original & Chaos Theory.

Same here, although I have to admit that the close combat looks way better now (No offense, guys) and Sam's face looks more natural and realistic (although I liked the idea of the beard and the long hair which obviously originated from 'The Fugitive' - one of my alltime favorite films).

quote:

I was a little miffed when I realized he is no longer part of Conviction.

He has been involved in the creation of the Assassins Creed Lineage films, so he's not completely gone.

quote:

Is Beland responsible for the direction of the game now the way Ferland was? Or was Ferland more of a designer & Beland a producer?

Usually the team decides together the direction, however the creative director no matter if Patrick Fortier (2007 Conviction now Army of Two 40th Day) or Maximé Beland is responsible for the art direction of the game, at least that's how I understand it (Feel free to correct me, Li! ).

quote:

Final though - I'm excited for Conviction and want the more action oriented and speed stuff, but hopefully they don't remove as much of the previous stealth stuff as everyone is claiming.

We will see, how it turns out but I'm 'a bit' more optimistic than others.

quote:

Originally posted by singularity_:
However, the "tactical" or "agressive" side of things is where SC could have always used the most improvement. Most of us here pretty much agree that after CT, it is hard to improve on the fantastic stealth aspects of the game. Now imagine if they upped the agressive parts enough that getting discovered wasn't "mission over" or "reload the save because I really don't want to sneak past more-alert guards with body armor" time -- but rather getting discovered simply meant you had to make a dramatic shift in tactics to stay alive? At the end of the day, that's all I've really seen in the new build.

I personally just see this as a safety net that will vastly decrease the tension felt while sneaking because you know that you can easily escape from any mistake you make.

Like FEAR 2 and many other games that make progress and advancement so easy that any tension or atmosphere that's created just has a reductionary effect on the gameplay.

The whole point of this game is to sneak. Making the penalties for getting caught less substantial and altering the gameplay so that anytime they're spotted the gameplay goes to "ACTION" is a very quick way to shift the balance and orientation of how the player plays.

Why should a player take care while sneaking when it's very easy to escape from any consequences for not taking care?

quote:

Stealth is still there and gameplay is still unique. Now getting seen means you have to get violent though (or you have the tools to start violence yourself and survive). I never heard anyone complain about the shotgun or sniper atachments in CT, or the frag grenades and mines that have been in every game thus far, despite them being far from stealthy. If anything, they were celebrated (both among fans and critics) because they finially gave Sam more "teeth" rather than being a guy with a bunch of cool acrobatics who could barely aim a weapon in a fire-fight (and forced the games into an archaic trial-and-error routine that most developers abandoned in the mid 90's).

All of these additions though allowed Sam combat capabilites in the hands of someone who knew how to use them.

But none of these additions did anything to alter the stealth gameplay that was the fundamental focus of Chaos Theory. Trial and error was a large part of Chaos Theory because many people were going for 100% stealth throughs, which requires a lot of quick loading for this result if the player is not careful. But Chaos Theory was very capable of offering a very tense experience for those that continued to play their passage of play until it's completion instead of just quick loading anytime you were caught. But, as I said, it was people trying to achieve 100% stealth that continually did this, not those interested in play a level and using all the tools available to you.

quote:

So long as they don't "break" the stealth, I don't care if they "add" to the agressive. If anything, I support it. They might be taking away some stealth options (i.e. moving bodies) -- but in the end the little details like that never really bothered me. So long as the core stealth mechanic is satisfying and fitting to the SC universe, I will be happy. Anything else they add past that point only helps, as it gives the player more options and freedom (whether it be M&E, CQB moves, or new gizmos -- I don't care).

You're contradicting your self right here.

The stealth mechanics have been crippled, but I think singularity was saying more freedom as in being able to play more action or just stealth, as appose to only having the choice to play stealthy or super stealthy.

quote:

Originally posted by Jazz_117:
The stealth mechanics have been crippled, but I think singularity was saying more freedom as in being able to play more action or just stealth, as appose to only having the choice to play stealthy or super stealthy.

Bingo.

And while I agree that if the devs make combat super easy, the tension created through stealth will be lost (FEAR 2 being an awesome example, actually), all the reports heard thus far say that it is anything but easy. In fact, after hands-on time, IGN's main complaint was the steep learning curve and the fact that the game was quite difficult.

So the equation is this: Make stealth the primary focus, but if captured or compromised (or if you so-choose to engage first), make combat and/ or evasion challenging and thrilling but very rewarding and very fun, until you can begin the loop of being super sneaky again (agressors are killed or you have broken the line of sight).

I've beaten CT numerous times. On one of my playthroughs, I put the game on hard (but not elite) and made myself the promise of going through every level individually without loading a save for getting caught or missing an objective -- fighting through every mistake, and shooting through every blunder, trying to be sneaky, but not caring about 100%. This was the most frustrating time I have ever had with a Splinter Cell game (still to this day). Immagine a SC game where combat is still skill based (requires reflex, planning and a degree of preperation) and much more difficult than staying sneaky (IGN says only a handful of bullets kill you on default difficulty and you die in most direct encounters), but just as much fun as other parts of the game because you have a fighting chance -- you feel like every lost firefight is your own fault, rather than the result of forced stealth game design.

That sounds like a stealth game that could turn the genre on its head. One in which being stealthy is a necessary means to survival, rather than "the way it was meant to be played" -- like you have a fair chance in every fire fight, but loose more often than not because you are out-gunned or out numbered or at an inferior position or didn't plan your own assault well enough, etc, rather than "I died because my character moves very slowly, aims very slowly, has limited CQB techniques and enemies can take more bullets than I can -- guess I should just be stealthy"

That is stealth action redifined.

I can see the point you're making and it is a very good point, but it is not representative of the game we've seen.

The game we've seen makes it incredibly easy to eliminate the threats in your way, to the point where it will become the automatic option for progression and sneaking will only be a necessity when the player didn't plan correctly and M&E is unavailable and even then you're put in a very watered down stealth situation that is, frankly, disgraceful for one of the stealth heavyweight titles out there.

People are simply looking over the fact that this is a STEALTH game. But because they've ramped up the action it makes it excusable that the primary gameplay facet of this franchise is degraded and disregarded in the development process?

Also, from every engagement we've seen, even without M&E, Sam is so overpowered in comparison to the groups of opponents he's faced. They really provide no threat to him in any walkthrough we've seen, some of which do not have GOD mode activated.

I get what you're saying that when balanced combat erupts in a situation because, for whatever reason, stealth has failed that Sam's capabilities should be enough to drag the player through it with some stiff, but not irritating, challenge.

But that is not what we see in Conviction. That's the "idea" that's been sold to us with this game. But the execution sees Sam mowing over his opposition with little to no thought required. Much like you see in a shooter.

The vast majority of the game may be different, but in my experience, when it comes to Ubisoft, what you see in pre-release material is what you get.

From alot of the design decisions that we've seen made on this project, I really feel that this is clearly not going to be the situation you've described.

Sneaking is secondary here and is only a tool to make your lethal capabilities more effective.

I do accept and agree with your idea of gameplay centred around a sneaky Sam that can come out tops in a fight balanced to his skill set, but I disagree with the opinion that such an idea is even close to being a reality in this game.

On the contrary: Conviction has only ever been demonstrated by the guys who rehearsed their playthrough a million times in advance.

I recall a demo a while back with Steve Masters playing, he looked pretty concentrated while playing and he made a point of saying that it was rather tense and far from easy. (Not his exact words)

Every preview I've seen, heard and read makes also makes a point of saying that the gameplay is far from easy. Many have said that it does require stealth.
I think it was OXM said that it was tense and rewarding. Another 360 mag said that it was crap loads of fun.

I see a pattern here. To call all those guys liars is a bit steep don't you think. Sure they're gonna hype it, but to excessively see every preview of the game say almost the same thing tells me that maybe they're actually speaking (writing) the truth.

And I guess the biggest difference between us and them is that they've all had hands on time with the game.

quote:

Originally posted by Jazz_117:
On the contrary: Conviction has only ever been demonstrated by the guys who rehearsed their playthrough a million times in advance.

I recall a demo a while back with Steve Masters playing, he looked pretty concentrated while playing and he made a point of saying that it was rather tense and far from easy. (Not his exact words)

Every preview I've seen, heard and read makes also makes a point of saying that the gameplay is far from easy. Many have said that it does require stealth.
I think it was OXM said that it was tense and rewarding. Another 360 mag said that it was crap loads of fun.

I see a pattern here. To call all those guys liars is a bit steep don't you think. Sure they're gonna hype it, but to excessively see every preview of the game say almost the same thing tells me that maybe they're actually speaking (writing) the truth.

And I guess the biggest difference between us and them is that they've all had hands on time with the game.

Do you REALLY THINK that ANY gaming publication is going to say anything bad about Ubisoft and any of their games? The second they do Ubisoft will go elsewhere for their "Exclusives". I put about as much faith in gaming publications as I do in the movie "2012". That is why I have not renewed my PC Gamer subscription and still on the fence about getting ANY gaming publication again.

I do my own research and listen to the devs and what they say and then watch the videos that are put out to promote the game and make my decisions based off that.

What I've seen and what I've heard doesn't match up when it comes to stealth being in the game. That is why I say that I don't believe them when they say that Stealth is there, show it to me if it is. I have yet to see it.

Bottom line, I make my own decisions on how good the game is and I something that not one gaming publication does, take into consideration what the game is SUPPOSED to be based on the previous games if it's a supposed sequel, which this one is.

quote:

Originally posted by FrankieSatt:
Do you REALLY THINK that ANY gaming publication is going to say anything bad about Ubisoft and any of their games?

Err... Yes.

And a lot of places who haven't had any hands on exclusives have said that they like what they see.

quote:

What I've seen and what I've heard doesn't match up when it comes to stealth being in the game.

Yeah, you're totally right there, no one has ever said that stealth is in this game.

quote:

Bottom line, I make my own decisions on how good the game is and I something that not one gaming publication does, take into consideration what the game is SUPPOSED to be based on the previous games if it's a supposed sequel, which this one is.

Funny thing that 'cause OXM said that it felt a lot like Chaos Theory when they played it. And just for the record they are usually reliable, or as reliable as a magazine can be...

Anyways like you, I don't take much notice to them, I'm just pointing out a few coincidences. I'll be able to make up my mind when I get my hands on the game, until them I'll continue to be less cynical then you.

I find it much easier to make my own mind up about things Jazz, rather than taking the word of a non sceptical journalist.

And no magazine is reliable....

Apart from CLICK

Too many of those guys said bad things about VA, so I don't trust 'em...

I think we've seen enough to get a good idea of what the game will be, though, regardless of what the reviewers say. I think it will be a good game, but I also know I'm going to compare it to CT...which was crazy awesome and stealthy.