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Absolutely. I have a hard time comprehending why people choose to disregard statements like this. There's hardly anything ambigious about that. |
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Cat Fight!!!!!!!
 Seriously, it has been fun watching these 2 ladies debate SC. If they were fighting, I would be the first to get between them (is that really a good idea anyway?) and break it up, but they have been really civil with each other during this debate.  "Do not build your community around a game.... Build your game around a community" Staff GhostRecon.net | Aggression WhiteKnight77 | Blackfoot Studios |
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First of all, Thomas who? Bungie forums have "employees" who don't seem to know a lot. Mathieu or Thomas, 2 different statements against each other, or are they? It's really not disregarding. We have evidence suggesting both L/S being and not being there. Even that statement isn't perfectly one way understadable truth, how well thought that text is. One example could be that some people consider game no L/S if there isn't meter reminding all the time, no one seems to think SC and PT had sound stealth because there was no clear meter. Can we believe game has everything trailer showed and nothing else? In trailer L/S seems pretty useless, but so does many other things. What happens after 1st level, more precicely what happens besides trailer? I would be fine even without the L/S, but nothing against it and realism. It's early, it's little info, and it's unconfirmed and unclear info. What can we assume? |
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That they don't know what to implement and what not, and that the information they give is worthless and takes way too much time to come out? ------------------------------ Project Stealth |
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The negative view  Positive view would be: It's done when it's done, do they really have to tell anything? 
Once again guys are getting kicked down by ladies.  If they steal games, what's next  This message has been edited. Last edited by: kalle90, |
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LoL Me? Civil? NEVER!  -------  "Tonight's forecast...dark." |
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I agree. I'm very impressed, and proud.
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This is my point, Soron said the polls say majoirty are saying they want L/S. You've said where did the majority speak? Which was what I'm trying say. Although you have a vocal crowd on the forum, it doesn't represenet the majority, hence my pebble in the sea analogy.  My second point was that if a majority did speak on a large scale, and if they did like the old way, I would have no issues, with going that route. Although it may or may not be what I want personaly, likewise those who want the new direction. I don't think the rhetoric and condecending comments such as you should play x game, is valid because I or anyone else doesn't liek that direction, not saying you've said that by the way.
On both points, your first seems contradicts what you where saying.  Games like Halo 3 and Bioshocks immersion doesn't come from the perspctive but the games mechanics, story, atmosphere, these are the things why people get immersed in games not the perspective. Many may prefer a perspective to another one, but thats another debate.My second point was, if I was to make a claim such as, Splinter Cell is an evolved Spyro the Dragon, that conclusion would be flawed. Based upon the knowledge above, that each game has game mechanics that set them apart. What they share is a perspective thats all. If to say FPS gamers are evolved doom, this could be applied to EVERY game in that genre, and likewise other genre's that use different ones, it simply doesn't work when put into scale and add the complexity of each game.
My point was that, many gamers across the board where bored of night missions on Splinter Cell. When Double Agent was showcasted, and the level Kinshasa was shown, many fans of the series where happy to see daylight levels. It was posted lots of times that many where reintroduced back in to Splinter Cell for that reason. This was when many of the old fans where complaining there where daylight levels also. My point here is it was requested to be in the next game also by fans. I understand that SCDA was meant to be a stepping stone, but it seems to be a moot point, because the power that be have said that Conviction is a standalone game. Which means anyone who is new to the series, can pick up the game and will be able to follow the story without having to play SCDA for it to make sence.
LOL, you would be suprised. Many will complain is there a way to skip the citizen lines because they're too long, or too annoying. It will always be a double edged sword, you simply can't please everyone.
In Rainbow Six and Ghost Recon you can use Shadows realistically. By this I mean you can't find a dark shadow and sit in it and not expect not to be seen. They where realistically implemented in the way that, if you walk on top of a hill where your silhouette can be seen, they will spot you. If you walk in side of the hill it's harder for them to see you. Also if you walk along the fence line where the tree's cast a shadow, it is really hard for the AI to see you compared to running in the open, the same applies when you're moving your squad. If you space them out and walk in the shadows you won't be seen unless the AI is very close. These are actual military tactics called the Five S's of Camouflage. Shape, Shine, Shadow, Silhouette and Spacing.
This I think is all persception on the individual gamer. Sneaking can be done in a crowd, look at people who dress up as fake police men, then factor in the amount of civilians who ask to see ID. It's very small % it's why so many fake police get away with it. Take for example the Securitas depot robbery, fake police officer gets the Manager of the deput, at a traffic stop and kidknapps him and his family. Meanwhile the rest of the gang put on professional movie made masks like what ethen hunt wears to copy cat an enemy face, so no one could Id them, really clever bunch of robbers. They escaped with 53 Million, they wanted more but couldn't fit it in their van. There are all types of sneaky that is one of them. Hitman, is similar that he had to dress up as a waiter or another important person to get in. The only people who would be suspicious would be the staff, where as civilians wouldn't have a clue. Sneaking around in L/S is one way of sneaky, if you used improvisation like 47 thats another, there is a lot of ways you can be sneaky, it's just that L/S is your prefered sneaky way, it is not the only way.
Soron, they showed off a lot of what they where working on about with Conviction, using a lot of objects within the enviroment, crowd mechanics, diversions and improvisations using objects to block doors. These examples where very good, but such an early stage of the game I don't think you're goinjg to have such big details as this stage of development things change a lot. Bioshock in development around about this stage, threw out an entire level and replaced it with another one. I don't think we're in the dark too much we have an idea what the game will be like from the demonstration. With regards to L/S I don't think he did it to save face, if they change the mechanics later he will face a licking for the change regardless if he said that or not. It just seemed at the time thats what it was. Because if you look in the link CostaGirl provides after Ubidays, it says the opposite, which is common with development stages, things change. I thought you knew me but it seems you never did I tried to find you in the castle where you hid. I took the pictures that you ruined from my wall. No one remembered me I was right after all. |
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What?! Since when isn't there going to be sneaking? Crowd stealth is only used at the beginning stage of each mission. I remember the devs mentioning in a Game Informer magazine last year, that they'd be plenty of sneaking around albeit without the safety of shadows. They even showed a pic of Sam crouching in a high security office sneaking around using desks and the walls as cover. The new core gameplay isn't crowd stealth that's just the surface, the core gameplay is called ACTIVE stealth. Here Sam will have to be able to sneak around and infiltrate high security areas without the benefit and safety of darkness. It's an attempt to try and increase the tension of the stealth. So the crowd dynamic is just the intro, the surface of the new core gameplay. Those crowd scenes will be the early stages of missions, which will largely see Sam sneaking through high security facilities. The AI accompanied by the new aggressive gameplay options and minimal shadow areas will make stealth that more exhilerating (at least that what the Devs want). The crouching and silent sneaking around are still big parts of SC:C. edit: The devs stated that ACTIVE stealth refers to the basic premise, that Sam won't have all the time in the world to make decsions as was the case with the other SC games. Yes the game will support a thoughful approach, but the basic idea is to encourage improvization. And this was all from the devs mouths. Am I the only one who remembers these articles. Way too much talk on crowd stealth in these forums, this is SC not Assassins creed, the action takes place mostly indoors not amongst the crowds. The crowd stealth is a dynamic that's symbolizes Fisher's fugitive status, that he doesn't have 3rd echelons resources anymore. |
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So, you know this for a fact. I'm impressed. You must be in with the devs or indeed a dev yourself.
Or it could be the other way around. Crowd stealth is the new fad and they had to come up with a way to wrap the storyline around this new and promising *cough* game mechanic. |
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How can it be a fad? There are so many games that use crowd mechanics, if it is a fad, then it's failed as one. Crowd mechanics have been around 7 years, as old as Splinter Cell light and shadows, when GTA 3 set the benchmark. Would it be fair to use your logic and call light and shadows a fad too? I can understand you being upset about a direction but is such exaggeration needed?Doesn't your arguement go hand in hand though? Splinter Cell 1,2 and 3 the develoepers had to build specifically made levels around a binary game mechanic so they would work, light and shadows. Hence why the game level design is very linear, so that the mechanic would work within the realms of game design. But you argue saying they had to come up with a way to wrap the story around the mechanic in SC:C. Well they had to wrap level design around a mechanic and add a story, which makes your arguement look weak, if you're going to argue one but defend the other, it doesn't make sence. I thought you knew me but it seems you never did I tried to find you in the castle where you hid. I took the pictures that you ruined from my wall. No one remembered me I was right after all. |
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Crowd stealth is a fad nowadays and has certainly not been around for 7 years. You're talking about a much broader concept that you refer to as "crowd mechanic". The concept of crowd stealth was stressed vigorously by the AC-team as something entirely new and wonderful. Elements of it can of course be found in for instance Hitman Blood Money, but AC was supposed to elevate this to a whole new level. For my money, it failed miserably. As for your other point, I'm merely saying that it is just as likely they had to build a story around their new core game mechanic as it is probable that this new gameplay had to follow from the storyline. I suspect the former is the case. I don't quite see how you can claim that my argument looks weak when in fact I'm not arguing anything. To me though, your reading comprehension seems to leave a little to be desired. |
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My point is, the big debate started after SCC was shown; Ubi didn't change anything because of the fans. They have their own reasons, which I have speculated quite vocally about for a long time.
I didn't say that all of the immersion comes from the perspective. I merely said that the first person perspective is a mechanism for immersion, whereas a third person perspective is not. And, I'm not sure what you mean when you say I contradicted myself...
That's all I said they shared.
I only bring up Doom as an example because it's the first FPS I played. But, I do think that all FPS's are essentially the same, underneath. Forget about the story, graphics, characters, and any other details, because that's not what I’m talking about. I'm only talking about the most basic part of the game - FPS is a genre.
That may be true, but likewise, many were not.
Ah, but none of the "daylight" levels were completely daylight. A good portion of each one was L&S, so even those of us who fail at anything else were able to get through them.
I'm talking about a stepping stone in terms of gameplay, not story.
That's a completely different point, though. Regardless of whether or not you can skip stuff, who wants all of the citizens you save to say the exact same things?
I don't want realism. I want Splinter Cell.
Sure. But, I don't think anyone would argue that the mechanics of each style are very different.
It's not about preferred; I don't like the Hitman games (NOT saying they're bad. I just don't like them). ------- "Tonight's forecast...dark." |
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The third person perspective is though. This goes hand in hand, ofcourse the perspective of both is a mechanism for immersion if you look at it like that. Take the Dark Sector developers, one of the reasons they went third person, instead of first person is to show the character and emotion, immersion comes from this, it is for that very reason, why they chose third person and to tell the story from that perspective. Watch their interview about that Here. They're not the only developers who use the third person as a perspective to tell the story and show the character, Prototype is another game, likewise Saboteur and Gears of War. There is a huge list of games that do it for that reason. It's easy to understand in context, if you was in FPS view, and you where Sam Fisher, you wouldn't see half the things he does due to the perspective limitation. Where as in third person you can see those things and see them physically happening, this is immersion. People get immersed in that. Each perspective, be it RTS,TPS,FPS all have immersion from a perspctive point of view, you can't say one is and the other is not, thats the contradiction. For you it may not be, for others it is, including developers. It is why they use that perspecive, for example chainsawing in Gears of War wouldn't look half as good from FPS, where from TPV it's very *graphic*. But I still think this brings back to the the original point. You cannot say Halo 3 is an evolved doom simply based on perspective, or that Splinter Cell is an evolved Tomb Raider.
What about games like Dungeon Keeper 1,2 which is a hybrid FPV and top down? You can't put that in the same category, and genealise and say they're all the same, each game works differently, and looking from a complex point of view though many share same genre, I couldn't say they evolved from x game.
Kinshasa, Sea of Okhotsk, Mexico Cozumel where daylight, where they wern't fully when you was in doors yes, but the theme was they where daylight levels. Something which was a pleasant suprise to many people who found the night time levels stale. Yes, many didn't like daylight levels, but seeing it from another point of view I can see why many would find it stale if you only do that one thing, a bit of variety doesn't hurt.
The same complaint was brought up in SCDA. There was many NPC's who said the same rehashed lines from SCCT, and SCPT, that was ok by many. My point is if they add more lines to citizens while this is good, someone will always complain about it, there was always will be.
fair enough.
My pint was the game uses shadows, many other games do too, but not the simple sit in a dark shadow and not take into consideration silhoutte, shine and other realistic things. If you where to improve Splinter Cell with L/S, you would have to add silhoutte recoginition, dynamic lighting to objects, which they are using now. So they form a shadow, unlike the previous games. That then becomes real world values, thats the way forward, I would say check Alone in the Dark, tech demo as a good example of this. I thought you knew me but it seems you never did I tried to find you in the castle where you hid. I took the pictures that you ruined from my wall. No one remembered me I was right after all. |
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I feel like we're talking about two different things. I'm talking about the pretty much automatic level of immersion (as in, the level to which you feel like you're actually in the game) that comes from the first person perspective. Just forget about everything else – no story, no characters, no atmosphere, no nothing. Just perspective. Can anyone else weigh in on this???
I do believe that Halo (don't know about Halo 3, though I assume it's the same) is an evolved Doom from the standpoint of the genre. They're both FPS's; they share exact same base. And, I wouldn't say that Splinter Cell is an evolved Tomb Raider, because I never played Tomb Raider. Though, I'm pretty sure its core mechanism is not L&S...
LoL Again, I don't think we're talking about the same thing (though, I can't be totally sure because you keep talking about games I've never played...). I'm not saying that the games directly evolved from one another (if it sounded like that, sorry); I'm really talking about how the base mechanism, the genre, whatever you want to call it, hasn't changed from Doom all those years ago, to Halo. Halo's an evolved version of what FPS's were way back when.
Exactly - it was a bit of variety, it wasn't the entire game. Incidentally, the daylight stuff didn't really bother me. I didn't like it, but even on Hard it was still entirely possible to go completely clean, so I tolerated it. I do have issues with the fact that you couldn't do that and complete all your objectives, though.
We've talked several times about how that's where a lot of us think L&S should go. But, SCC isn't/wasn't that. ------- "Tonight's forecast...dark." |
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People are talking about crowd stealth like it's the core gameplay, Sam will still be sneaking into buildings and he'll have to improvise in this game. As opposed to being able to crouch in a safe zone for as long as he wanted to, as was the case in the previous SC games (which I still love).
Everyone seems to be talking like sneaking around isn't part of the puzzle anymore. The crowd is an additional dynamic along with the higher level of interaction for more intense, challenging stealth. The one thing the devs have to work on is the melee, they need to make it more challenging than it was in AC, and they need to have enemy AI that punishes you for being too aggressive. If the melee is done right as a last ditch ability for Sam when he's in a pinch, without making it too easy, SC:C is going to blow away any stealth experience past and present. My one concern is that melee will become too simple and the enemy AI won't be aggressive enough in melee. |
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