quote:

Originally posted by BasheD.:


Smith, I've quoted these phrases time and again and you still look away?[/b]

"More than likely, you'll be creating chaos and mayhem to reach your goals."

"Players will probably come to rely on combat."

From Danny LePage, here.

Yeah .. sounds like we'll really have to make strong decisions, huh?

Just so people see.

quote:

Originally posted by Vth_F_Smith_:
because these are the same people who created SC in the first place, it's not Shanghai, not Bukarest or some other studio, it's the one who created the very first Splinter Cell game - the game you're "defending" here.

And they're exactly the ones who will most likely destroy it. Yes, how very comforting, the bittersweetness of life.

quote:

Originally posted by BasheD.:
Ow Smith that's .. ehm .. wrong. Look at Hitman, I can complete a whole assassination undetected using several disguising, yet always slipping by under the noses of my enemies. Then there is the AC approach, that you act like you were just a civilist. That's also not LoS-stealth but sure as hell counts as stealth in general. Argument nullified.

Not really. Using a disguise you're doing what? Staying out of the line of sight. Using social stealth you do what? Blend in with your surroundings in order to stay out of the line of sight.

quote:

"More than likely, you'll be creating chaos and mayhem to reach your goals."

Yes, I've seen it and? Of course you'll need to create distractions.

quote:

"Players will probably come to rely on combat."

Of course (if they don't master the active stealth) the player will be noticed by a cop.

Now let me use a quote:

quote:

"As we are refining the game design, it is becoming more and more evident that Stealth is the art of going unnoticed, and that SC:C is a stealth game (and franchise). Now we can create what we may have always dreamed of (thanks to next gen horsepower) … moving shadowpaths. As we are now using line of sights for guards, and you are trying to get away from this line of sight (the addition of all those lines being the “light territory”) you realise that you are still navigating a space, but a moving one, as well as your own territory. Using the crowd (or an individual) to get out of sight forces you to re-evaluate your safe area pretty much all the time. Moving guards with massive diversions is also a nice way to redefine all borders to your advantage.

That’s now really the core of the game design of ConViction, transforming the space defined by the opposition of the enemies’ lines of sights, and your safe areas that are constantly moving."

From Thomas Geffroyd (Game Manager Ubisoft Montreal), here

@scworld:

I'll give you this link to a very interesting game reactor interview video on YouTube and I think that's the video you meant when you mentioned the "Frogger" example.

BTW:

Pay close attention to the lower right side. Although this video was shot using an early built (most likely at the Ubi Days event), that's probably the hero vision and as you see it behaves almost exactly like the stealth meter we got used to 'til SCDA but instead of light and shadow it seems to react to Sam's environment. It's basically telling you if you're causing suspicion or not (the larger the bar, the higher the suspicion level and if the bar is flashing your "cover" is blown).

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Vth_F_Smith_,

Listen to him from 2:57 ... explosions, explosions, explosions. Great.

How do explosions = ATTRACTING attention, fit in with the Legacy games? The only explosion there was the truck in the chinese embassy level.

quote:

The genre is called stealth-action not light&shadow-action!

No matter what it's called, light&shadow-action is what it has been (it is the name of the game.)

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DGG's Splinter Cell:Organised Chaos (part III, MissionTrippleAgent) trailer at YouTube

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quote:

Originally posted by Vth_F_Smith_: So basically you're complaining about a game you almost know nothing about (SCC) and sort of switch to a game you know even less about (the rumored MS game). Interesting point.

Well, actually, we're all complaing about what we DO know: (You might not have noticed) the tiny list I posted on this... this this! (THIS!) post namely this very one based on reviews, previews, interviews and trailers by the foremost gamesites/magazines (Power Unlimited, IGN.com, Gametrailers.com, Wikipedia.org, YouTube, YouTube.com, and some more YouTube and even Ubisoft them selves!

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DGG's Splinter Cell:Organised Chaos (part III, MissionTrippleAgent) trailer at YouTube

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quote:

Originally posted by scworld:
Listen to him from 2:57 ... explosions, explosions, explosions. Great.

That's only half of the truth and you know that since you have seen the video. Exclusively for you, I created a transcript of that section and highlighted the part you kept out of your explosive post and yes, I didn't highlight the part you've already mentioned.

quote:

"So you can go at it in a number of different ways. You can improvise in any way you want. The only thing is you have to go to that place. I could have come from the other side, use the crowd, use maybe some other gadgets that I'm gonna get on the black market, create some explosions somewhere else, blow up a car or start an alarm system on a car. You know there's a lot of different things the player's gonna be able to do."

About your question...

quote:

Originally posted by scworld:
How do explosions = ATTRACTING attention, fit in with the Legacy games?

Well, as I said Splinter Cell has always been about stealth, as you know stealth also includes creating a diversion. Sam has been able to create a diversion in the past games as well, by throwing a bottle or a can etc. (Remember the NSA Training Program Backstab Video from Chaos Theory?) This time he might have to create an even larger diversion to attract the attention of a whole crowd (as well as the authorities among it) and since there's no giant bottle around, he's able to improvise and use something else - like something that creates an explosion for example or (just like Raphaël Parent in the video said) a car alarm etc.

Besides that, using gadgets, alternate ways or simply stealth have also been part of the Legacy games, Conviction's gameplay is nothing else than the evolution of what we've seen in the previous games - it would have even been there right from the begining of the Legacy if they would have had the required technology by then which they didn't. Mathieu is even saying that himself in the first video (Game Reactor Interview).

quote:

Originally posted by davidov:
Well, actually, we're all complaing about what we DO know: (You might not have noticed) the tiny list I posted on this...

I did notice it.

quote:

Originally posted by davidov:
Well, actually, we're all complaing about what we DO know: (You might not have noticed) the tiny list I posted on this...

quote:

Originally posted by Vth_F_Smith:
I did notice it.

Good,then -if we both agree that these are facts of what ConViction will be*, and are completly objective* and that I left none out, even added facts from reliable sources that I intially did not knew of, that other people told me and I added - at least you know all these people are well informed and have strong, reliable arguments supporting them in thinking what they think.

*= Unless noted otherwiss (For example the part called 'My personal opinion')

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DGG's Splinter Cell:Organised Chaos (part III, MissionTrippleAgent) trailer at YouTube

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Let me just quickly quote how Splinter Cell was intentionally defined and designed by Ubisoft:

"Like a sliver of glass, a Splinter Cell is small, sharp, and nearly invisible."
"You must leave no trace on the physical or political map."

Yeah .. that is what made Splinter Cell to us, Smith. Now in Conviction things are going to be like:

"Like an old, still lit up christmas tree, Sam Fisher is worn-out, filthy and clearly visible."
"You must attract attention in order to not attract attention"

Sounds illogical? From what we've seen in the videos, it actually is.

to Vth_F_Smith_ about BasheD.'s post :

He does have a point, you know.

quote:

Originally posted by davidov:
He does have a point, you know.

Only partially.

quote:

"Like a sliver of glass, a Splinter Cell is small, sharp, and nearly invisible."
"You must leave no trace on the physical or political map."

In Conviction you still need to be small, sharp and nearly invisble (that's why you need to create distractions) because otherwise you'll get yourself arrested, maybe even killed. The tools are different because the setting is simply different now. So basically in SCC you'll have to use everything Sam has to offer as a former Navy Seal / Third Echelon operative because his ability to improvise will be his greatest strength (sharpness) without all the technology of 3E.

As I said, I haven't seen the video for Conviction, but Smith is right about creating diversions in the original game(s). How many of you did not ever use a vodka bottle or a soda can to create a diversion. I used them all the time (nice that the residents and employees left them laying around). You would always here "What was that?" when you threw one.

I coudl see y'all complaining if they took that feature out, but it is still there, you are just using it differently and that is an example of the game evolving.

quote:

Originally posted by WhiteKnight77:
As I said, I haven't seen the video for Conviction, but Smith is right about creating diversions in the original game(s). How many of you did not ever use a vodka bottle or a soda can to create a diversion. I used them all the time (nice that the residents and employees left them laying around). You would always here "What was that?" when you threw one.

I coudl see y'all complaining if they took that feature out, but it is still there, you are just using it differently and that is an example of the game evolving.

While it is certainly true that both are diversions, blowing up propane tank doesn't seem quite as stealthy as throwing a soda can.

quote:

Originally posted by CoastalGirl:
While it is certainly true that both are diversions, blowing up propane tank doesn't seem quite as stealthy as throwing a soda can.

You're right about that, but the point is, that the propane tank is only one option. As Raphael Parent pointed out in the video, you could also decide to set off a car alarm in order to attract the crowd's (and the authoritiy's) attention in order to reach a certain goal. You only have to get the mission done - how you do it is totally up to you. So basically the propane tank, the police radio and the car alarm are options just like the ones we've seen in the previous games (for example the water pump on the oil rig in SC1, the fuel powered generators in SCCT, the OCP, the option to bash a door, open it a normal way or stealthy, the various attachments, the closer than ever system, the whistle, the ammo for the SC20K or even the knife from SCCT). The fact that you'll have options you can choose from, in order to accomplish the mission, is what makes it a sandbox game.

quote:

Originally posted by CoastalGirl:

quote:

Originally posted by WhiteKnight77:
As I said, I haven't seen the video for Conviction, but Smith is right about creating diversions in the original game(s). How many of you did not ever use a vodka bottle or a soda can to create a diversion. I used them all the time (nice that the residents and employees left them laying around). You would always here "What was that?" when you threw one.

I coudl see y'all complaining if they took that feature out, but it is still there, you are just using it differently and that is an example of the game evolving.

While it is certainly true that both are diversions, blowing up propane tank doesn't seem quite as stealthy as throwing a soda can.

Take a look at the situation. Would throwing a can in the middle of a crowd really cause a diversion for you to get guards attention off of you? Not really, and if they stuck to that and kept it that way Im sure a lot of people here will say that is the dumbest thing they ever saw(including me). So, we need something that is more believable.

quote:

Originally posted by MKCC14:
Take a look at the situation. Would throwing a can in the middle of a crowd really cause a diversion for you to get guards attention off of you? Not really, and if they stuck to that and kept it that way Im sure a lot of people here will say that is the dumbest thing they ever saw(including me). So, we need something that is more believable.

Like one of these extremly loud car alarms that'll definitely get your attention once your hear it (I hate these things since one of them went active while I was sitting inside the office - really hurts your ears), or (even if it's a bit extreme) an explosion that causes the people to turn around and watch what happened.

Hey guys, I am getting a gun illegally and going to shoot a car, then walk away like nothing happened. I'll assure you: they'll find me within 8 hours. Of course, I can't look through walls

And I'm gonna break a car open to set off the alarm, no no better yet, steal the radio-set of a police officer, throwing down some notebooks as I run away.

quote:

Originally posted by MKCC14:
Take a look at the situation. Would throwing a can in the middle of a crowd really cause a diversion for you to get guards attention off of you? Not really, and if they stuck to that and kept it that way Im sure a lot of people here will say that is the dumbest thing they ever saw(including me). So, we need something that is more believable.

You misunderstood her point.
What she wanted to say was: In Conviction, you are now blowing up propane tanks, ie. creating mayhem , which is against the nature of Splinter Cell (tm).

quote:

Originally posted by BasheD.:
What she wanted to say was: In Conviction, you are now blowing up propane tanks, ie. creating mayhem , which is against the nature of Splinter Cell (tm).

Diversion has always been a part of stealth and Splinter Cell is a stealth-action game so it's definitely not against it's nature. In fact it's part of it's nature and has always been - even if it's been more subtle before.

quote:

Originally posted by scworld:
Hey guys, I am getting a gun illegally and going to shoot a car, then walk away like nothing happened. I'll assure you: they'll find me within 8 hours. Of course, I can't look through walls

quote:

Originally posted by BasheD.:
And I'm gonna break a car open to set off the alarm, no no better yet, steal the radio-set of a police officer, throwing down some notebooks as I run away.

With all due respect, please be so kind and send me a PT as soon as you're interested in a really serious discussion instead of trolling or spamming. Thank you.