I think the key thing I'm saying is that you can't take what's said on a forum and assume it's the same for everyone. It really is different everywhere and you need to give the feedback different weights accordingly.

Razz, you are right, many who dislike a product will tell more people that it is not worth it compared to something that is liked. Even moe the reason to create something that people want.

Maybe using the disliking of a product was a bad example but is still valid none the less. A better example is 20 gamers want a return to a first person view in GR compared to the 5 who want a 3rd person view. Same statistical rate when Wembly is filled up with gamers who like GR, yet Ubi still does not make GR back into a FPS and keeps it a TPS. This is but one example. If Ubi does in fact take a majority of opinions into account when creating a game, why is GR still a TPS instead of a FPS (as it originally started as and not including GR4 as we still do not know what type of game it will be)?

I remember a poll on the Ubi GR website years ago asking gamers how they preferred to play games, via console or the PC. The PC gamers smashed the console gamers something like 2000+ to 100 (if that), yet Ubi concentrates on console games then porting them to the PC (rather poorly too) instead of the other way around (worked really good in the past mind you).

You also brought something up in referenece to the latest financial report and that is piracy on the DS, yet Ubi's CEO recently went on record as stating that Ubi is creating a new copyright protection schemed aimed at PC games and will be included on GR4. Why? Sure there is piracy with PC games, but as Ubi finally notices, there is rampant piracy in the console market or at least with one console. Has Ubi really thought about why people pirate games? Just look at the forums here to find out why. Lack of a demo is the biggest reason. People are tired of buying buggy Ubi games and want to try a part of the game without having to fork out $40-$70 or more depending on where ya live, for something that will not work as it is supposed to. Releasing demos will help in that regards, but I will agree that there are those that will pirate just to pirate and they can't be stopped. Adding more CP to a game will only disenfranchise your customers and cause more to pirate (another big reason why people pirate, pirates do not have to worry about invasive measures to stop them from playing a game). If Ubi really wants to pick up their bottom line, there are some simple things that Ubi can do that other companies are doing that is pretty popular with their customers and they are doing really well. Stardock is one of those companies. Great business model for what they create and release.

Sadly i understand what you are saying Razz... as much as i dont agree with it. I know ubi wants to make money and a game that many people will buy and you guys do so by listening to the masses rather then the community here sometimes( or a majority of the times depending on the game ...) But i do think that sometimes it hurts the Hardcore fan base, which can be just as important - and which games use to be more designed for it seems, rather then the masses.

And im my opinion it has made some really great games really go down hill. The best example i can give is the original GR game. I still go back and play frequently (not the PC version but the xbox version) as it is such a great game. But when Ubi started to listen more to the masses rather then the community it degraded the quality of the series... GRAW mainly. The story went out the door along with the realism and everything that made the original one so good because the general population likes to play dumbed down, easy to play, run n' gun games.

So i guess where i am going with this is that despite trying to appease the general gaming population, your games (I mean Ubi as a whole) have been generally getting increasingly worse because fewer people care about making quality games, and care more about pumping out rehashed sequals with things that should have been in the original game to begin with just to make more money.

But i understand what you are saying... and it does make sense in a marketing based world.

quote:

A better example is 20 gamers want a return to a first person view in GR compared to the 5 who want a 3rd person view

This is your problem - your "statistics" are inherently bias as you're deriving them from a place where you're more likely to get people to complain (about first person vs third person) - a point on which you agree upon. The real statistics, which are taken from multiple areas all over the world, disagree with what you say and people prefer a third person view for Ghost Recon. They really do. This is fact. I also find it fascinating that you believe that you can't see the bias in posting a PC vs Console poll on the internet.

Onto piracy. You ask why people pirate games and again use the forums as your only source material and to say that it's because not getting a demo is really only half (maybe even a sixth) of the story. There are numerous other factors in there which I'm not able to go into but this really isn't a biggie, although your cronies on the forums would disagree I'm sure.

Inquisitor_Zeal, you're right. We do need to keep listening to fans and trying to keep making games that they like but as games get more popular there are more fans and that 'hardcore voice' becomes more and more diluted. Your opinion is that Ghost Recon has gone downhill with GRAW but that's in contradiction to what we hear elsewhere. New comers to the franchise really enjoyed GRAW and GRAW2 and this was reflected in the reviews, sales and post-launch feedback we received. I'm not blind enough to know that the original Ghost Recon fanbase want a return to ultra-realism, first person view, etc, but this is quite the minority. I'm sure WhiteKnight would happily recommend BlackFoot's new product in development for that particular group and perhaps that'll satisfy such requirements when it's released.

quote:

Originally posted by UbiRazz:
Inquisitor_Zeal, you're right. We do need to keep listening to fans and trying to keep making games that they like but as games get more popular there are more fans and that 'hardcore voice' becomes more and more diluted. Your opinion is that Ghost Recon has gone downhill with GRAW but that's in contradiction to what we hear elsewhere. New comers to the franchise really enjoyed GRAW and GRAW2 and this was reflected in the reviews, sales and post-launch feedback we received. I'm not blind enough to know that the original Ghost Recon fanbase want a return to ultra-realism, first person view, etc, but this is quite the minority. I'm sure WhiteKnight would happily recommend BlackFoot's new product in development for that particular group and perhaps that'll satisfy such requirements when it's released.

Haha i know GRAW seems to be more popular and more people enjoy it over the originals, and i know my opinion on GRAW is not the same as most peoples (but i can still always hope for the return to its roots ) And yes, ive been following Ground Branch from Blackfoot studios for a long time now, i just have never post over on the sites forum

Let me ask you this Razz, why are more people playing GR over GRAW or GRAW 2 (based upon XFire's statistics)? There has to be a reason and that should be plenty telling. We can also see similar trends with the R6 franchise. If the newer versions of the games were so popular, they why are the older games played more? From my point of view, it's because the new games try to be something they are not. They are flavor of the month games and designed to grab a quick buck for Ubi and nothing more. If they were meant to last any time, they would have been designed differently. Remember, Ghost Recon is still selling to this date when it can be found and it is close to 8 years old now. Explain that please Razz.

So every game is changed to have the things most people want, no matter the origins? "We want GR to be about fighting aliens for a change"...

My opinion about fighting piratism is that only normal customers suffer from it. Pirates don't pay the ever increasing prices, they find a way to crack every copy protection, they can use their games like they owned them. If I couldn't rip a CD to a computer, I wouldn't buy it. The service is getting worse when that happens, can't support that.

It's like when you develop a new gun to fight against criminals. Soon the criminals/opposing armies will get their hands on that new gun and you need to make even better, more lethal gun... Civilians get hurt the most in that.

quote:

why are more people playing GR over GRAW or GRAW 2 (based upon XFire's statistics)?

Classic is a classic. 1st game is the original and sequels have to change something. There will always be people who like the original the most. Some say the best NHL is 1994 version. Most likely the 1st game of the series they played.
Also, I'm feeling that new games aren't better than slightly older ones under their new coat of painting and some niche additions. The basics are still the same.

SNES perfected 2D gaming; I feel Halo, SC, Forza, Ninja Gaiden, Dead or Alive 3, San Andreas, Morrowind, Kotor, Spiderman2... pretty much perfected 3D gaming. From that it's just small steps forwards and backwards I don't really care about. Might as well play Halo1 instead of Halo3. Halo1 is deep enough to last nearly forever, like GR is. But there are also people who always want change and new.

WhiteKnight, every game has a standard lifecycle online and if a few super hardcore players are continuing to play Ghost Recon then that's entirely up to them. It does sound like an excuse but they really are the exception to the rule. Just because a few hundred (I honestly don't have the stats to hand) are continuing to play a super old game doesn't mean it's more successful or more popular than more recent iterations of that game.

If you look at the top Xbox Live stats, you'll see that there are still people playing on the Xbox 1 and older versions of games but this doesn't mean that they're better than the newer ones, just that they have a super strong hardcore following. Those games have exactly what those people want and it could be that they've not found it somewhere else - much the same with your Ghost Recon example. This isn't any indication of superiority over other games but it just does something well for a small group of people.

Kalle, I think you misunderstand exactly who pirates are from our previous discussions. We're talking about two distinct groups: PC pirates and DS pirates. Both of which extend far beyond the hardcore PC pirate who never buys a game ever but now covers much more 'casual' gamers who have found piracy so easy that they don't want to buy a game as it's easier to get it for free.

I agree with your point of there will always be people who like the original the most and I think this is close to the point I'm somewhat warbling towards earlier in this post. It's sort of like music as well, there are those hardcore fans who always claim the first album is always the best and the later ones, despite gaining increased sales and better reviews, aren't good enough.

So I went and started looking for stats... It's interesting that Xfire is mentioned as the source of Ghost Recon having more players than GRAW/GRAW2 as it's actually this order:
GRAW2 - 260 players/day
Ghost Recon - 179 players/day
GRAW1 - 92 players/day

All of this is less than the number of players the console versions of GRAW get a day - even if you add them all together and compare them to just GRAW or GRAW2. Doesn't look like your arguments hold much weight, Whiteknight...

the problem with the numbers xfire gives is that it uses numbers based on thier user's and since not every1 has xfire (to behonest it's not that great of a chat program and often conflicts with games) so any numbers they give are based on thier user base. so what Xfire is saying is that the majority of xfire users play ghost recon and not the majority of players.

Well, no. Their stats are saying the majority of PC Ghost Recon players are playing GRAW2, not the original Ghost Recon. Using the stats we gather from our own tracking tools I can tell you that the number of GRAW1 Xbox 360 players is more than all PC players over all Ghost Recon games put together.

quote:

Originally posted by UbiRazz:
Kalle, I think you misunderstand exactly who pirates are from our previous discussions. We're talking about two distinct groups: PC pirates and DS pirates. Both of which extend far beyond the hardcore PC pirate who never buys a game ever but now covers much more 'casual' gamers who have found piracy so easy that they don't want to buy a game as it's easier to get it for free.

True. But almost everytime I see or read of a new way against fighting piratism, I feel it just hurts common people's rights. How great it would be to play all games on PC without having to have disc on tray like some older games do? I can say that on laptop it's really annoying. Now I can't rip some of my CDs on my PC etc. Things like this won't atleast make people like the official and legal service more. Illegal way has more and more traits over legal way. Just FYI.

quote:

I agree with your point of there will always be people who like the original the most and I think this is close to the point I'm somewhat warbling towards earlier in this post. It's sort of like music as well, there are those hardcore fans who always claim the first album is always the best and the later ones, despite gaining increased sales and better reviews, aren't good enough.

Opinions are opinions, but what kind of change is too much from developers perspective?

If enough people say they'd like to see aliens in Ghost Recon, would we see aliens?


Oh right the reason I originally posted here. How about an open world quality Biker Mice from Mars game based on the 1993 TV series? Could kill GTA.

Kalle, if you want to know why things are added/removed to our games check my earlier posts in this thread

i think ubi soft should have a idea forums or a point of contacts via e-mail as it could better gamers if ubi soft like the idea

having a idea forum would be a good idea.
with this ubi could create a idea archive by filtering out good ideas people have.
however i think there could be a problem with a flood of useless, impossible or old ideas.

also there is a lot of talk that ubi doesn't listen to what people say.
i think the reason people think so is because there is no or too little feedback from the developers.
for example i have made a thread containing open world FPS ideas.
but i don't know if any of the developers have even read this, and if they have, do they take it serious?
without feedback i just can't know it.