At minimum, a human being has to waste .5 seconds physically making a move and hitting the clock timer. I don't think its truly a "fair" game when the computer can make a dozen moves before even a second comes off the clock. There should be a limit on this. If a computer gets 40 minutes a move...and a human gets 40 minutes a move...the human will spend at least .5 seconds physically "grabbing the piece" with his mouse and moving it on the board. In the human's brain he knows his move, but he takes time to actually make the move. The computer gets 'extra time' in this regard because it doesn't consume that .5-1 second necessary to move a piece

If you really want to make Chessmaster fair, there should be a measurement of the actual amount of time it takes a person to quickly and reasonably make a chess move with his mouse (without an error, say dropping the Queen on F3 when it should go to E3), incorporate that into Chessmaster. In 40 moves, a human probably spends at least 30 seconds simply moving pieces. In a 2 minute game, this can represent a huge % of time. Chessmaster should have a minimum amount of time per move.

ill give you a real example of how this is unfair. Lets say I have 30 seconds left on the clock, and chessmaster has 12 seconds left on the clock. I have a rook and a bishop, he has a rook and a pawn. Now one of my strategies will simply be to get him to run out on time.

But this strategy is impossible to pull off because he will make lightining moves....dozens in a second. I can also make a lighting move...IN MY HEAD...but there is no way I can rattle off dozens of moves in 30 seconds the way CM can rattle them off in just a single second. If I had a neural hookup on my brain, and CM could read my thoughts, then it would be a fair match cuz i wouldn't need to waste time actually mousing.

It should be a REAL STRATEGY to win by time. Yes i know it sounds wimply to win a game based on clock, but this is a genuine way to win a game. CM makes this nearly impossible unless the human has a substantial amount of extra time over CM, or the human has a significant material advantage. If human has just a slight advantage, and the CM is running low on time, and the human is running low (but not as low as CM), the notion of winning by clock is just too far out of reach because of CM's unfair ability to never "consume time" moving a piece like a human is forced to do.

Does anyone else have the feeling of déjà vu?

I've said this many times before, and I'll say it again: this is not a bug. The computer will use as much time (or as little time) as it needs to. There's nothing you can do about that. I should add that It's not unfair, either.

Let's put it this way: Let's say you and Viswanathan Anand (or whoever your favorite grandmaster is) play a game... are you going to complain because he moves faster than you?

Never forget that Chessmaster's personalities are simulations of human players... but in the end, no matter how good that simulation is, you're still playing against a computer, which is faster than you. That's why no one has won against a computer on time.

Adding a few seconds to Chessmaster's clock to simulate "moving real pieces" wouldn't work, either, because people move pieces at different speeds (i.e, an elderly player will move slower than a younger one). Who would decide the average speed?

Even if a half-second were removed from the computer's clock for "simulated piece moves", someone would still complain that it's too fast...

Accept it; when it comes down to time, the computer will always win.

What I'd suggest is that you play longer games; that way the time you spend using the mouse isn't so critical. You might also want to try playing different personalities, too... they don't all play at the same speed.

I'd also suggest trying a different personality as well, as they all play differently.

quote:

In 40 moves, a human probably spends at least 30 seconds simply moving pieces. In a 2 minute game

LOL

Just because YOU are slow, doesn't mean everyone is slow.

Maybe you should have a look at this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_k_8gn5HpSs

You would lose easely on time against any of these guys even if you had 2 minutes and they just 20 seconds. Now you can go crying how unfair this is, because they are taking just a little fraction of time for their moves.

Everybody is master only of his own time, not your opponents time.

In a 30 minute game I can let my clock run down to the last minute and only then start playing, if I want to. Why would that be unfair to you?

Since we are talking speed, take a look at this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...5BrBe6Ow&feature=fvw

True, some people play very fast. And true, it's not a bug if the CM personalities do the same.

But arguably the point of the personalities is to simulate, somewhat, the experience of playing real people. Hence the different pictures, playing styles, mistakes and so on.

And whilst it is not a bug, it does rather break the "suspension of disbelief" that all the opponents can play much faster when their time is running out, with no decrease in how effective their moves are.

quote:

Originally posted by sholtom:
all the opponents can play much faster when their time is running out,

ALL people play faster when their time is running out also

quote:

with no decrease in how effective their moves are

Thats not true. In half a second computer can't calculate nearly as much and well as in 20, 30 and more seconds. Instant moving personalities can't and don't make strong moves. It's up to you to take advantage of this. If you fail to take advantage of this instantenous play, than the fault lies with you, not your opponent.

quote:

Originally posted by ebutaljib:
ALL people play faster when their time is running out also

They play faster, within reason: real games can be decided on time, after all.
Many players (e.g. me) can't suddenly play half-second moves in the middle game.

quote:

In half a second computer can't calculate nearly as much and well as in 20, 30 and more seconds.

That's clearly true if I'm playing Chessmaster himself.
But if I'm playing an opponent that's rated, say 1300, will it play any different between taking one second for a move and 1 minute? (serious question, not implied statement)

The general rule is that the longer time for calculation = better moves. But there are exceptions, such as when a personality doesn't have an opening book, so it has to think about every move.

Lower rated personalities have very limited depth. Vlad for example (the highest rated instant moving personality) has a maximum depth set to 3 plies (half-moves). Computer calculates 3 plies deep in a blink of an eye, hence the personality moves. What else it is supposed to do? It has gone through 3 plies so it moves. If maximum depth was set higher then it would take his time before making the move, but then it wouldn't be the same personality anymore. It would play much stronger.
But because Vlad looks only 3 plies deep, his moves can't be that strong, because a simple 3 move combination (6 plies) is out of his horizon. Thats what you have to take advantage of.

But I would surely complain if my opponent takes less than a second to move! That is absolutely unrealistic.

Only a program can do this. But even if I moved slower than a grandmaster I wouldn't complain. After all the grandmasters are human beings and not robots.

But sincerely speaking its not about the speed. You can be a great chess player but moving the pieces at the speed of light would not look real.

Chessmaster is a cheater ofcourse.
That's the problem! The computer always wins particularly at speedchess games like 1 minute games. Its unfair really..

I love how your username is BLaZiNgSPEED by the way!

On a more serious note, the Chessmaster IS a COMPUTER chess engine...NOT a human. In other words, quick, speedy calculation is accepted and normal, all fairness aside! It is what it is, a computer chess engine. Hardcoding a specific time-delay for each move for the engine would make the whole thing pointless, I mean engines are designed and updated to be faster, stronger, more effective. They aren't necessarily made to be more "human" right? at least when it comes to speed! On the contrary, they should be made faster (more efficient!)

Anyway, good luck gaming!

quote:

Originally posted by BLaZiNgSPEED:
But I would surely complain if my opponent takes less than a second to move! That is absolutely unrealistic.

Only a program can do this. But even if I moved slower than a grandmaster I wouldn't complain. After all the grandmasters are human beings and not robots.

But sincerely speaking its not about the speed. You can be a great chess player but moving the pieces at the speed of light would not look real.

Chessmaster is a cheater ofcourse.
That's the problem! The computer always wins particularly at speedchess games like 1 minute games. Its unfair really..

Sigh... this is what I feared. No matter how much you explain the facts to some people, they refuse to listen.

As it's pointless to continue this discussion, I'm closing this topic.