Well, we'll just have to keep on building bigger and bigger ones until we can have a real castrophe. On the other hand we could train bears to use gatling guns, that would also make life more interesting. Either way I think we need some truly irresponsible science to take our minds off the economy. Who cares about mortgage foreclosure when there's a grizzly with a gatling camped on your front lawn.

quote:

Originally posted by Boomhower0311:
Well, we'll just have to keep on building bigger and bigger ones until we can have a real castrophe. On the other hand we could train bears to use gatling guns, that would also make life more interesting. Either way I think we need some truly irresponsible science to take our minds off the economy. Who cares about mortgage foreclosure when there's a grizzly with a gatling camped on your front lawn.

This is an EPIC idea. In fact, why don't we have animals fighting all our wars?

Maybe Xen is real...one way to find out!

quote:

Originally posted by OtnemeM_IroM:

quote:

Originally posted by Boomhower0311:
Well, we'll just have to keep on building bigger and bigger ones until we can have a real castrophe. On the other hand we could train bears to use gatling guns, that would also make life more interesting. Either way I think we need some truly irresponsible science to take our minds off the economy. Who cares about mortgage foreclosure when there's a grizzly with a gatling camped on your front lawn.

This is an EPIC idea. In fact, why don't we have animals fighting all our wars?

They're too smart for that.

quote:

So in other words, there HAS been thought put into the safety of this. The possibility of disastrous results is not small, it is (from the PDF report) "totally negligible".

The actual quote is:
"The authors conclude that such gravitational effects are totally negligible,
being suppressed by inverse powers of the Planck mass MP. Recently there have been suggestions that
the Planck mass is not a fundamental quantity but is derived from an underlying theory with more than
four space-time dimensions. In such theories the higher dimensional Planck mass may be much smaller,
raising the question of whether gravitational instabilities may develop much more readily."

Which is totally different than what you implied it to be. First of all it is only in reference to gravity effects (black holes) secondly, it acknowledges the fact that they may be entirely wrong.

quote:

Originally posted by GTZ_:
We review the possibility of producing dangerous objects during heavy-ion collisions at the Large Hadron Collider. We consider all such objects that have been theoretically envisaged, such as negatively charged strangelets, gravitational black holes, and magnetic monopoles. We find no basis for any conceivable threat.

They also go on to state:
"Before closing this introduction we wish to make a general remark: All estimates concerning
production probabilities and subsequent properties of various objects at the LHC necessarily involve
certain theoretical assumptions. Some, for example the invariance of physical laws under space and time
translations, are so general that they do not need to be explicitly stated. Others are based on extrapolations
of known properties of hadronic systems. They will be explained in the following sections whenever they
are used. Here we want only to emphasize that no estimates are absolutely assumption-free."

Basically they're saying the system should be safe provided their assumptions turn out to be true. Which is a long ways from saying the system is safe. What's more they say they hope to see "unpredicted" phenomena, which indicates that not even they are sure of what will happen. I think you can save your eye rolling at this point. I get what you're saying though. I don't think this accelerator is necessarily going to destroy the planet, but that there is any chance at all and they move forward is galling to me, it's not a matter of "oh my god I don't want to die", it's more a matter of who are they to gamble my life to any degree without my consent. The extent to which we're willing to accept this it seems, simply differs. You're fine with a negligible risk, I'm not. Negligible does not mean "none".

It's also worth noting that CERN is the primary funder for the particle smasher, and the LHC is their brainchild. It's not like we called in an independent panel to assess the danger. That's CERN's report. I don't think it's unimaginable that it could be influenced by trace elements of hubris. I don't think given the competitive nature of academia it's unfathomable to think they might be in a rush to get their experiments under way. And while I don't think anyone would willingly destroy the very planet they're currently standing on, (what's the point in discoveries if there's nobody to read your name in a book) I have to wonder how many accelerators down the line something will happen.

http://www.nsc.org/lrs/statinfo/odds.htm
Fascinating stuff though amigo. "Bitten or crushed by other reptiles, W59" Stands out as my favorite.

quote:

Originally posted by Ghengis_John]
Which is totally different than what you implied it to be. First of all it is only in reference to gravity effects (black holes) secondly, it acknowledges the fact that they may be entirely wrong.

Correct, I thought it would be too long and drawn out to go through each one and you're right that that particular quote was in reference to one of them. I had a look at the others, and of the ones I understood, the results are similar. They state as much in the abstract that there is no cause for concern.

I agree with you that our main difference is our willingness to accept a group of scientists' claims of "totally negligible". I'm willing to accept it. What's more, if it is not in fact totally negligible, I predict that there would be a lot more criticism articles in the over twenty years that this thing has been worked on for, by scientists around the globe.

quote:

Originally posted by Ghengis_John]
It's also worth noting that CERN is the primary funder for the particle smasher, and the LHC is their brainchild.

Yes, I linked their article/study, but it isn't the only one out there that is discounting the doomsday theories. My ultimate point in my response was to look at the arguments for and against, which was not the tone that I felt from the OP. I'm really glad that you read through the stuff that I linked, though. Just providing a glimpse of the other side.

I must admit that I'm not a particular fan of the assertion "but it sounds bad", particularly when it comes to science stuff. There appears to be an implication there that "therefore, it must be bad." I have now had many chain letters that are based on that argument, such as those that argue against that evil chemical, dihydrogen monoxide.

An excellent article. Nice.

I always love scientists who are "trying to recreate the conditions of the Big Bang". Wait a second guys, don't you remember the last time the conditions of the Big Bang came around? It went Bang, and created a whole lot of really fast moving hot stuff.

Max

Theoretical Assumptions? don't these scientists know what happens when you 'assume?'

quote:

Originally posted by zeeEVIL1:
Theoretical Assumptions? don't these scientists know what happens when you 'assume?'

Oh! Don't you make and ass out of U and ME?

It's on. This might help them.

On the bright side...

If this thing does wind up destroying the Earth, then we won't have to worry about 2012, the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse, the Antichrist, Revelations, and all that other stuff!

quote:

Originally posted by Brimtown:
On the bright side...

If this thing does wind up destroying the Earth, then we won't have to worry about 2012, the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse, the Antichrist, Revelations, and all that other stuff!

You always seem to find the silver lining Brim...

quote:

Originally posted by Brimtown:
the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse, the Antichrist, Revelations, and all that other stuff!

yeah since all these are real or whatever.
pbbsh....

quote:

Originally posted by XBLirael:
That's a beautiful line. I Am Legend, anyone?

yes you are.

I for one am VERY excited by this. The nay sayers are saying the same things they did in the 60s about Apollo. "oh so much money we could be giving to fight hunger, all this money to amuse a few scientests"

First of all big science does not take money from the hungry. They are not mutually exclusive. This is hardly to amuse scientists. If nothing else the spin off tech from colliders helps everyone. The World Wide Web and HTML are spin off from a collider. (no not the internet that is from DARPA)

Anyway the potential to understand our universe is so great as to be worth every penny. As for risking everyone's lives, I think that is an empty argument. People said the same thing about the A-Bomb. Many people were sure that the A-Bomb would set off a world wide fire ball. Frankly it could be argued that the Bomb stopped WW3 and it certianly ended WW2.

HTML was created by CERN too?!

quote:

Originally posted by theexpozay:As for risking everyone's lives, I think that is an empty argument. People said the same thing about the A-Bomb.

Exactly, it's not like the the A-Bomb killed anyone.

I'm just kidding, I know what you mean. I think this research is one of the most important things humanity has ever done. I'd love to see money being wasted on other things be diverted to help people but this is worth it.

As for the risks, well in the unlikely event that it does kill everyone, what does it matter we'll all be too dead to care.

quote:

As for risking everyone's lives, I think that is an empty argument. People said the same thing about the A-Bomb

Actually the A-bomb was different. You act like the cuban missle crisis was nothing to worry about because they would have just burst into confetti. It's not like they were harmless. The A-bomb could have killed us all, but to do that it would have required we actually use them. For this to kill us we only need to be wrong about our guess on the way the universe works.

I listened to them turn it on over the radio last night. It didn't exactly inspire confidence that it took two tries for the thing to start up. And their reaction when it failed also makes me feel more secure (panicked shouting in ten-twelve different tongues). But it's on now. It won't reach black-hole creating speed for a couple of weeks they say. Let's hope they're right about that hawking radiation and none of the other scenarios occur. The head of the project joked "There's been a lot of talk around here and if Mr. Hawking is right about these black holes closing he should win a Nobel prize." He'll also be alive, which is nice too.

That asides, I think it's idiotic of people to assume the collider was a waste of money. I've heard a lot of talk that the ten billion dollars spent could have fed the hungry or what not or that this won't affect the average individual (of course if there is some disaster it could correctly be said it wiped out world hunger). Examining what past discoveries have done for us in terms of chemistry, power generation and such it's doubtless that further understanding of the universe will lead to new applications. You just can't expect anything right away. It took roughly a hundred years from the time electricity was discovered to get to the lightbulb.

HAHAH! Check out googles picture today!

www.google.com

quote:

Originally posted by Spanishdan:
HAHAH! Check out googles picture today!

www.google.com

Thats awesome! I was reading that when they finally do the test in a couple of weeks after the collidor reaches top speed, It will be similar to two 400 ton Bullet trains colliding head on with each other at about 100 miles an hour. That is a serious collision but not really black hole worthy.

Is it bad to feel disappointed by this?

also have any of you seem the scare video they have going on the news networks? You know, the ones that have the black hole form and then begin to expand as the Earth is sucked into itself.
Wild video.