quote:

Originally posted by Adnihilis:

quote:

Originally posted by rizmal:
I will take SU-47 over F-22,and yes in this moment SU-47 is prototype&experimental plane but Suhois director tells that if there are orderes they will produce it,so his ready to be real operational jetfighter

Except for that whole "forward-swept wing having structural issues in high-g maneuvers" thing....

Where people get their information is beyond me. You could more aptly compare something like the Berkut to one of our X-planes. Same operational status. armyofone is correct.

^Armyofone approves!

The future of Sukhoi








SU-35BM (Bolshaya Modernizatsiya - Big Modernization)
The Su-35BM is a new project, and not a Su-27M. The original Su-35 was produced in response to the requirements of the Soviet Air Force, with a preliminary series units being manufactured. Sukhoi assigned the designation Su-35 to the export version of the Su-27M (T-10M) in 1992. This fighter was fitted with canards and the N011 radar. The financial crisis in Russia after the collapse of the Soviet Union precluded the Russian Air Force from buying this model in significant numbers. Production of the Su-27M had started in Komsomolsk during the last days of the Soviet Union, and a total of 15 aircraft (including the prototypes) were ultimately manufactured. The Su-35 was offered without sucess to several countries including South Korea, UAE and Malaysia. This model was part of the FX competition for for the new multi-function fighter for Brazil, despite of the lack of tradition of use of Russian military material for Brazil.
But fifteen years later the financial circumstances have changed and the requirements for updating the fighter plane forces of the Russian Air Force are concrete and pressing.
The Su-35 fighter, powered by two 117S engines with thrust vectoring, combines high maneuverability and the capability to effectively engage several air targets simultaneously using both guided and unguided missiles and weapon systems. The aircraft features the new Irbis-E radar with a phased antenna array, which allows the pilot to detect and track up to 30 air targets, while simultaneously engaging up to eight targets. It is equipped with a 30-mm cannon with 150 rounds and can carry up to eight tons of combat payload on 12 external mounts.
The Sukhoi-35BM is designed on the base of the engineering solutions applied for creation of the fifth-generation aircraft taking into account the experience of operation of the Su-30MK2 (Su-27SM) multipurpose aircraft family. The Su-35 combines both characteristics necessary for a modern fighter, such as: supermaneuverability, sophisticated active and passive sensor systems, high supersonic flight speed, high flight range, possibility to arrange aircraft interaction; and characteristics of a good combat aircraft, namely: high combat load, wide range of the “air-to-surface” missiles, sophisticated multichannel electronic warfare system, reduced radar observability, air-defense break capability at a low level flight.
Principle design features include:
Aerodynamic cleanness, application of the integral aerodynamic layout with a lift fuselage
Multifunctionality and combat effectiveness: high-performance solution of a wide range of “air-to-air”, “air-to-surface” tasks and reconnaissance
High agile capabilities supporting super-maneuverability implemented by a new-generation power plant with thrust-vector control and new flight control system
Reduced radar observability due to application of radar-absorbing materials and coating
Combat survivability - two spaced engines, onboard systems redundancy, fuel tanks explosion protection, sophisticated electronic attack systems
Target data distribution system (Air Force, Army and Navy network coordination)
Highly integrated onboard equipment with a centralized control from an open architecture information-management system providing pilot intelligent support, using a “dark cockpit’ concept
Passive and active detection system with high range of action, monitoring of aerial, ground and surface space at a long distance from the main air base
Effective penetration of area and point air defense systems by implementation of modern electronic countermeasures and weapons systems
New approaches to the aircraft operation and maintenance system - auxiliary powerplant, onboard oxygen generator, built-in systems operability test facilities
Training aids including full mission simulator, special trainers, and PC-based training system
The Su-35BM (Bolshaya Modernizatsiya - Big Modernization), undertook alterations in its fuselage, weight, RCS, embarked avionics, radar and bombs. The Su-35 aircraft is designed by “Sukhoi Design Bureau”, but its production is mastered at the Komsomolsk-on-Amur Aircraft Production Association named after Gagarin.
On the world fighter market Russia’s Sukhoi is pinning its hopes, in the near future, on a substantially modernized Su-35 multi-role fighter. The model must be an interim type between today’s Su-30MK in various configurations and a prospective fifth-generation fighter, whose deliveries may start after 2015. The Su-35 is a 4++ generation aircraft employing technologies of the fifth generation. Sukhoi claims they make it superior to all other 4th generation fighters now under development worldwide.

Program Status
The Su-35 has long been a brand name in the aviation world. Since 1992, an export version of the Su-27 fighter (created under the order of the Russian Air Force) has been demonstrated at international air shows. At the turn of the millennium, Su-35 fighters participated in the tenders of Korean and Brazilian air forces. By the mid-decade of the new century, a general concept emerged of a considerably modified Su-27 fighter, which retained the name of Su-35.
The first flight tests were foreseen for August of 2007, being operational in the end of 2009 or the beginning of 2010. The first experimental Su-35, completed in summer 2007 at Komsomolsk-na-Amure Aviation Production Association (KnAAPO) first appeared at Russia’s MAKS-2007 air show. Nowadays, the first flying prototype of Su-35 is undergoing ground tests. Its first flight took place on February 19, 2008. The first demonstration fight of the Su-35 on July 7, 2008 attracted much attention to this aircraft, which has been undergoing tests since February.
The latest addition to the large T-10 (Su-27) family is to become the interim fighter for the Russian Air Force before fifth-generation aircraft are launched into mass production. Following the first prototype, now on the assembly line of KnAAPO (Komsomolsk-on-Amur Aviation Production Association) are a further two examples of Su-35. Those will join the tests this year. The production and delivery of Su-35s to customers are scheduled for 2010. They will continue with the emergence of a fifth-generation fighter on the market.
The state armament program for 2006-2015, adopted in 2006, envisages mass production of the Su-35BM for the Russian Air Force, and the Defense Ministry is expected to purchase 182 of these aircraft. In addition, technology developed within the Su-35 project will be used to upgrade the Su-27s to the Su-27SM2 standard. With the Su-35 launched into mass production in 2011, the 182 aircraft ordered by the Defense Ministry would be delivered by 2020. By that time the Russian Air Force would have between 120 and 140 upgraded Su-27s and 30-40 fifth-generation fighters, enabling the Air Force to maintain its combat potential in the next 2-3 decades.
The Su-35 was offered without sucess to several countries including South Korea, UAE and Malaysia. Beyond the Russian Air Force two other countries already had demonstrated interest for the modernized Flanker monoplace, Brazil and Venezuela. It may be that it goes to obtain customers with the same ability of the Su-30. It may be that China and India will turn into customers. This model was part of the FX competition for for the new multi-function fighter for Brazil, despite of the lack of tradition of use of Russian military material for Brazil. As of early June 2002 Sukhoi's Su-35 fighter jet was said to have a "close to 90 percent" chance of being the winner in a Brazilian tender to buy up to 24 new supersonic fighters for $700 million. Sweden's Saab bid in the contest together with BAE with its Gripen fighter, while Embraer and Dassault were offering a version of Dassault's Mirage strike plane.
Sukhoi said in 2008 it planned to start deliveries of the new aircraft, billed as "4++ generation using fifth-generation technology," to the Russian Air Force and foreign clients in 2011 and produce Su-35s over a period of 10 years up to 2020. The company is planning to export at least 160 Su-35 fighters in the future to a number of countries, including India, Malaysia and Algeria.
On 02 October 2008 Sukhoi started flight tests of the second Su-35 Flanker multirole fighter to expedite the completion of the testing program. "The addition of the second aircraft to the testing program will speed up its completion and ensure the beginning of deliveries to our customers in 2011," Sukhoi said in a statement. The first Su-35 successfully completed its first 6-minute demonstration flight on 07 July 2008 and had made over 40 test flights since then. All of them confirmed superior technical and combat characteristics of the aircraft.
Different regimes of the work of power plant and integrated system for control were perfected for the hour. The stability parameters and aircraft handling, power plant were checked. There are no observations to the work of engines, systems and equipment. The deserved test pilot of the Russian Federation Sergey Bogdan piloted the aircraft. Specifically, under his control on 19 February 2008 the Su-35 for the first time was detached away from the earth.
Connection to the tests of the second aircraft will make it possible to accelerate the execution of program and to ensure the beginning of series deliveries Su-35 to Russian and foreign customers in 2011. The entering of fighter for the armament of Russian VVS will contribute to strengthening the defense capability of the country, and it will also allow Sukhoi to preserve competitive ability to the output to the market for the fighter of the fifth generation. Deliveries Su-35 for the export are planned to the countries of southeastern Asia, Africa, Near East and South America.

Info that i tell about su47 and its production even if its a 0.1% goes right from the maks 2007 video and interview with director of Suhoi SKB.

I know that they now develop su t50pak as 5th generation jetfighter,also with su 30/35/37 models highly modernised for future air combat

quote:

Originally posted by rizmal:
Info that i tell about su47 and its production even if its a 0.1% goes right from the maks 2007 video and interview with director of Suhoi SKB.

I know that they now develop su t50pak as 5th generation jetfighter,also with su 30/35/37 models highly modernised for future air combat

The Terminator is also just a prototype. We'll see as many of those as we will the F-15 ACTIVE flying active duty. heh

Now I may be flamed for this, but I think the fact that people that people picked the Berkut over the F-22 is a testament to the way the human mind works, the " grass is always greener philosophy, we always going to choose what isn't there for us. My point is that if the Berkut had been made and the Raptor left as a simple prototype, I think this thread would be full of people choosing the Raptor. This logic can also apply to people who think the YF-23 shouldve been selected over the F-22.


Just by two cents.

in game i think it would depend on weapon load out. as whoever attacks first will probably put the other person on the defensive and possibly on the run (but i could be way off). irl i would say f22, because of stealth and added BVR.

This is an argument that is a complete waste of time. Nothing is known about the Su-47 that is worth anything with the exception that it was a one time technology demonstrator that the US proved with the X-29 nearly a decade and half EARIER.

If any discussion is to be made, it should be the F-22 versus the current administration, for THAT is the F-22's worse enemy as of now.

Anyways, for the sake of debate, I could easily take the Su-47's base planform layout and show it's general INFERIORITY on design alone. The airplane is a prime example of an aircraft manufacturer IGNORING some basic design philosophy of stealth concepts (war proven). Yes, as much as the Russians want to use ballet manuevering for fighter sales, the stark REALITY of modern air combat is that the one that is shot down never knew what was happening until it was to late (the past decade of air to air engagements prove this).

As far as the post that says that the Su-35BM is the future of Sukhoi, I will have to agree with that until Sukhoi/HAL provide some relevent information on the PAK-FA.

quote:

This is an argument that is a complete waste of time.

quote:

Originally posted by SkopeDog:
Don't be such a killjoy, mang! I think he meant in game, not IRL.

quote:

Originally posted by EscoBlades:

quote:

This is an argument that is a complete waste of time.

quote:

Originally posted by SkopeDog:
Don't be such a killjoy, mang! I think he meant in game, not IRL.

If that was an attempt to point out that I missed the TC idea of this thread, poin driven home.

Anyways, that all depends on three things.
1 - Connection
2 - Player
3 - Missiles

I was only jesting, i pretty much made the same arguement earlier in the thread, and was just reposting the response i got.

@maxraptor09-first of all su-47 is more than 20 year old project dated from early '80s(i agree with u that he has flaws in 20+ year old design,but still looks awesome).Secondly stealth is proven only against new radar systems that have flaws against old radars,which is proven when US strikes at my country '99,so our army nocked out 1 of STEALTH f-117s,how?Easly ,outdated radars that we mostly hae here ,have densier and wider radar wave so all that color coating and braking shape doesnt help too muh agains this old piece of HW

ANd remember all new attack tehnologies have contra mesures very soon from day that their appear so stealh is no more that revolutionary as a decade ago

And i agree with EscoBlades that this post is completly waste of time because kills mostly depends on skills not on tons of tehnology,esspecialy when there are no much deferece between em

quote:

Originally posted by rizmal:
@maxraptor09-first of all su-47 is more than 20 year old project dated from early '80s(i agree with u that he has flaws in 20+ year old design,but still looks awesome).Secondly stealth is proven only against new radar systems that have flaws against old radars,which is proven when US strikes at my country '99,so our army nocked out 1 of STEALTH f-117s,how?Easly ,outdated radars that we mostly hae here ,have densier and wider radar wave so all that color coating and braking shape doesnt help too muh agains this old piece of HW

ANd remember all new attack tehnologies have contra mesures very soon from day that their appear so stealh is no more that revolutionary as a decade ago

And i agree with EscoBlades that this post is completly waste of time because kills mostly depends on skills not on tons of tehnology,esspecialy when there are no much deferece between em

The Nighthawk was shot down due to the same flight paths being used roughly daily. If you knew where they'd be flying and when, then it's much easier to "spot" the aircraft. Hate to burst your bubble.

quote:

'99,so our army nocked out 1 of STEALTH f-117s,

I was under the impression that was considered something of a lucky shot and had more to due to its heat signature rather than its ability to absorb radar.

That aside, the F-22s major advantage is its first shot fist kill tactical ability. Routinely during exercises F22 pilots are able to kill 2 F-15s before the 3rd one can find it. So, unless Sukhoi is going to install 60's SAM battery radar into the radome of the SU47s, the fight is over before it has begun. Of course HAWX is a cool video game and no real life logic and scientific principle need apply.

The game play of H.A.W.X is too well balanced and doesn't really do much to represent real world attributes, though it does do some. For the game, it's more a matter of the gamers piloting skill, and which plane they're more comfortable with. F-22s tend to be hard to control in tighter turns, and also tend to over turn, even though they can make sharper turns, so a lot of time is spent correcting maneuvers and flight paths if you're not used to it or a more skilled pilot.

In real life scenarios, it's my somewhat informed opinion that F-22s would significantly dominate Su-47s for several quantifiable reasons, that's also assuming the Su-47s where produced and made combat ready with newer, effective, and available Russian technologies.

Why is this even a debate? The Berkut is a 10 year old prototype airframe.. Even though they used composite materials to resist "wing twisting" in high-G manuvers there is still that structural integrity to keep in mind. The Berkut is more manuverable by the nature of its design, but that also depends on a human pilots G tolerance, and that countries g-suit technology.. Who cares if your plane can pull a 18g turn if your pilot can only stand 10 without passing out?

The only real challanges there are to a F-22 in air-to-air combat are the Su-37 Terminator, and the other 4.5 generation Fighter aircraft.. Specifically the Rafales and Eurofighters. The Terminator is a fully functional aircraft, but simply hasn't been put into production because no orders have been placed for the plane.

The F-22 is more manuverable than any other 4.5 or 5th generation fighter with the the possible exception of the Su-37 Terminator. I know the Su-47 is more manuverable through its wing design.... Aside from raw manuverablilty, the F-22 has a maximum speed of mach +2.5 (+1,660 mph) and mach 1.84 without afterburners.. A faster climb rate than the F-15 Eagle, better radar, avionics than any other aircraft in its class, and stealth..

But as far as HAWX goes.. I'd say they got the planes speed/armor/manuverability down almost perfect.. Only thing I might do would be to lower its manuverabilty to equal the Su-37... Leaving the Berkut & X-29 with the only planes with "maximum" manuverabilty... But I'd say they got it right, even the planes perks. Having internal weapons helps allot with manuverabilty and such.

EDIT: Let me come out and say that im not a Raptor/ United States fanboy.. Im basing this on real world technology, not just made up statistics.. I'll also say that once I hit level 36, i'll be using the Terminator as my main plane in HAWX.