quote:

Originally posted by landon_326:
Pride of my skill over losing my 7 streak, I'll never resort to AAM. I'd rather be the only one with no kills than someone who brandishes cheapness. Though at best, everyone using all missiles that are not basically auto-hit.

I guess I should have defined honor.


Smoke, Ldogg

Smoke

Thanks for the advise on attaining Sitting Ducks, I finally completed it yesterday evening and finally achieved all the trophies for Hawx.

On a different note, unfortunately kill streaks are not really a true measure of skill as they are easier to obtain against noobs and less skilled players, but it is much harder to get such a streak against skilled players ... and certainly the more honorable skilled players won't use AAM. I've been on matches where the host makes a gentleman's agreement with everyone not to use AAM or they get booted.

Perhaps better makers of performance may include

a. Ratio of TDM wins to losses -- over time, this would balance out play against skilled vs less skilled players

b. Ratio of kills vs other individual players

i.e. one may be pretty good if one has 23 kills and everyone else in a 4x4 has <10 kills

c. Ratio of points vs other individual players

i.e. one may be pretty good if one has 3000 points and everyone else in a 4x4 has <1000, but then it is likely the player is using TOP.

It would have been better had UBI created a rank system similar to Halo 3.

MC: I have some videos, which I'll spare you the posting of, where I am using JSM, and I lock onto my target, but I don't fire them for about 3 seconds after the lock on. I could tell, naturally mostly, that the missiles would miss, even though I'm locked on. So I waited, then fired them when he was at the correct angle.

AAM can be fired, especially in TDM, with a lock on, and they will hit. That is why it takes no skill to use them. Locking on should not mean a hit automatically.

Some of the maps respawn you in range of enemy AAM. Even if they didn't, range is nothing because of the furball concept, it's more fun than sniping from miles away.

You say AAM are used for the kill, but pilots who can use other missiles effectively would do so, remember MTAAs are 8 times better.

For me, nothing will ever make it okay for a weapon to auto-hit in a multiplayer game. Not range limitations or limited damage, it doesn't matter because they will auto-hit enough times to finish things.

Auto-hit = No skill needed. Say it out loud man, Aww toe Hit...automatically hits.

"Of course. Cheating is wrong, period. No doubt about it." -You. How can you have such a firm stance against cheating but think it's not wrong to fire missiles that do the work for you? If you are accidentally given a test in school with the answers all filled out correctly, and you turn it back in with your name on it, is that okay? I mean, they gave you the test, right? How would you feel if your neighbor got the test and turned it in like he's all smart, when you worked your butt off to learn everything better than most...but of you both get equal credit? AAM are the same, yeah they are in the game, and yeah they do score the same as any other missiles, but are they okay to use? Honor...nope.

Yes, it takes enough skill to be able to turn on the PS3 and a TV, and find the TDM area. Then choose a jet with AAM, then actually push down on the directional pad. I guess that is "skill." My friend's cat could not do any of that. I guess I have no choice but to concede.
End Sarcasm.

-------

Glad you got your sitting ducks, it does feel good to get it without setting it up with friends. I am not sure if I'll get the Counter Support (Drone Destroyer) trophy or reach level 40 (180K to go) and get that trophy first. The one I don't do first will be my everything trophy as well.

When looking at how well I did in a TDM round, I look at how much I helped my team. Specifically how many more enemies I shot down over how many times I got shot down.

Kill score - number of deaths = team help.

12 kills
-3 times shot down
---
+9 amount of help to team

That to me is an excellent way to see who performed better than others in a match.


Smoke

for all your yammering remember this if this was real you going to ask the other side not to fire certain missles??? and usually the one doing that is modded...try it sometime and you can dodge the missles just got to be fast enough dont need the mods... i just wish the ppl would fly with what they got... bet 1/2 of them cant fly without the mods... the funny thing is most the mods only work for a short time and then they run if they get shot up...AA`s are our <pc> only defence on the invincible and speed mods.... im more ticked off that the missles do some wierd things i got chased by a bomb...grab a set and sit down and fly the ship you can beat most out there just got to learn thier pattern and then hand it back to them... and use a multitude of missles .... real life they do but its a long run home if youre all tore up

quote:

When looking at how well I did in a TDM round, I look at how much I helped my team. Specifically how many more enemies I shot down over how many times I got shot down

...
when was there an I in team???player matchs just add to your xp but id rather just play the game .... its fun losing or winning dont matter if its an equal battle

If every player makes sure he is at +1, your team wins. Without any voice communication, you can barely call that a "team". There's no communication going on. In a fast game like this, there's no time for chatting. About help requests, they are usually sent for extra experience points and nothing else.

I don't consider a bunch of random people, looking to increase their own experience points, a team. In that case, it is better to look at the scores from an individual perspective.

As for AAMs, they aren't my weapon of choice, but with the right settings they are acceptable. (Realistic; they get 2 AAMs and you have 3 or 8 flares.)

quote:

Originally posted by oOMadMaxOo:
If every player makes sure he is at +1, your team wins. Without any voice communication, you can barely call that a "team". There's no communication going on. In a fast game like this, there's no time for chatting. About help requests, they are usually sent for extra experience points and nothing else.

I don't consider a bunch of random people, looking to increase their own experience points, a team. In that case, it is better to look at the scores from an individual perspective.

As for AAMs, they aren't my weapon of choice, but with the right settings they are acceptable. (Realistic; they get 2 AAMs and you have 3 or 8 flares.)

Help requests can be used to communicate and help your team. When I join in the middle of the match and my team is losing or doesn't seem to know who or what to shoot, I immediately target the enemy ace or enemy match leader and anyone accepting will automatically have their target set to my target which means we can score more points or catch up the faster we shoot down the match leader or ace.

I also watch for the tricks where the enemy ace or match leader flies off straight drawing someone to chase while one of their team mate gets behind the chaser and shoots down the chaser, I try to fall behind both and nail both with MTAA followed by JS or RP in combo.

I really gets tough when nearly the entire enemy team comes after me in my Su-47 and I've got 6 to 8 missiles coming in from all directions, then after I catch up, I hate it when they all just leave the game instead of fighting it out.

The Su-47 should've had an RP like the Su-37. That would've made the Su-47 a lot better general purpose fighter. Too many useless AAMs between the duplicated weapon packs (I don't use AAMs unless some keeps coming after me with them).

Well, it's a good thing this game isn't realistic... There'd be a lot more to gripe about.

I play for fun, and exp since we need so damn much of it. A team win means nothing. I have flown verse actual teams. They were talking on bluetooth head sets between matches and were communicating with each other the whole match. They would all 4 team up on one and kill my team one at a time while the rest respawned.

There is no I in team, but there is me. I've always ****ing hated the "no I in team" thought. There should be 4 I's in a TDM team, if everyone pulls their own part, the team will win, just like in life. Saying there is no I in team only takes away personal responsibility when you cause your team to lose. Tell Michael Jordan or Wayne Gretzky there is no I in team and see what they say, as long as nobody else is around.

I would not enjoy a realistic fighter pilot game. Real world physics and missile counts would make it incredibly boring. Plus, if you got shot down, you'd probably die when your jet blows up.

Burnout is the most fun racing game series to me, because its ballsout speed and crazy slides and take downs. But I don't enjoy games like Gran Turismo because they are racing sims instead of racing games.

Smoke

quote:

Originally posted by Master_Cylinder:
I was hoping...

You may be right about the PK but you know I was going to say it, so I will. HAWX is not "realistic" and that's OK, that's how they designed it, it's just a game. It's not a flight combat simulator, it's a flight arcade/action game. That doesn't change the fact that all of the missiles have advantages and disadvantages, thus balance.

Using Operation Desert Storm as your model we shouldn't be able to fly 50 jets, with a keyboard/mouse/controller/etc., with no fight training and pretty much master the basic controls in a few minutes. Comparing HAWX to "Real Life (TM)" is like comparing apples to oranges.

Why? Because they made the game they designed not the one you wish you had, in hindsight. They could have painted all of the planes pink there's a lot they "could" have done, in the end we have what we have and it's still fun.

More countermeasures (more server defined options in general) would have been nice but it's still a good game, imo.

Indeed you were, MC.

I honestly believe I am right with the PK's in HAWX. And yes, how they did it was "ok". I just feel the developers needed to be more careful while they were balancing the game out.

And sorry MC, balance by it's very definition is not met in this game. One missile should not be significantly better in accuracy (for example) then the others. 100% Seriously? I do understand why they did it though, and landon is right in this regard (which was to equalize the playing field). More care should have taken.

MC, come on. It's a flight action game, as you stated. My Desert Storm model was simply used to highlight how the developers could have used real world statistics to make for a better arcade experience. It's little things like this that increase the longevity with the mass population. It's my guess that only the hardcore and trophy hunters remain now.

A tad bit extreme with the pink planes. But not even Ubisoft was that stupid. LOL

Anyways. Did I think the AAM's were over-powered? Yes. But did it stop me from using them? Negative. Anybody foolish to enter the merge with me while I was armed with them paid the price (It's why I saved them for last.)

Copy that. If the game had the options I wanted, I would have kept this title long after the platinum..

quote:

Originally posted by landon_326:
If I were a real war time fighter pilot, of course I'd want my missiles to be the most accurate as they possibly can be. But the difference is in the possible negative side effects of real life verses a video game.

Losing a 7 streak blows, but being killed in mid air would be substantially worse I'd assume.

For the game, and all modern flight action games, I like normal missiles and the shoot four longish range missiles(MTAA). They can be avoided with reasonable skill as long as the player is paying attention, but they are indeed expert friendly. Hmm, Here's a challenge for the next competition: Who can get the highest streak in a 5 minute JSM only Hardcore TDM, gun upgrade active, no support units.

I really like Hardcore because it doesn't take too many missiles to kill/be killed, but you get more than two or four of your missiles. I think the 12 or so MTAA that the Terminator and most of my other favorite jets comes equipped with is a nice balance of missile stock verse kill strength.

-Tag: like chase one pre set pilot for 5 minutes or 10 kills.
-Base Destroyer: Quite obviously wipe out all of the enemy ground targets on the map before the enemy can wipe yours out. Some can play defense, some attackers. Maybe different bases can have more or less units, but greater anti air defenses.
-Capture the flag: Set a fly-to point like some missions have, and some random defenses. Which ever team gets to the point and flies through an ERS tube or between buildings or whatever, then flies safely back to their own flag position gets a point/win.

This, all be it nothing genuinely original, took all of 6 minutes to come up with and type out and correct and correct and correct. Really, AAM are pesky, but yeah, Hawx itself is is the real shame of the whole situation.


Smoke

I wasn't attempting to bring ultra-realism into HAWX. I was pointing out that using realism as a baseline to bring about a better experience as a whole. By making the MTAA's and JSM's better all the while making the AAM's worse, the game would have improved my great lengths in my book.

Missiles aside, the fact that assistance off was forced into was camera mode was more annoying in my book. Seriously? I can't bring my airplane down to post stall maneuvering unless I use the blimp cam? Yeah, right. This is why I played realistic mode. It was all about the forced cockpit.

You nailed it.
"Hawx itself is is the real shame of the whole situation."
Indeed.

quote:

Originally posted by landon_326:
Auto-hit = No skill needed. Say it out loud man, Aww toe Hit...automatically hits.

"Of course. Cheating is wrong, period. No doubt about it." -You. How can you have such a firm stance against cheating but think it's not wrong to fire missiles that do the work for you?

Not auto-hit. No lock = no hit. Flare = no hit. etc...

Next?

quote:

Originally posted by maxraptor09:
Indeed you were, MC.

I honestly believe I am right with the PK's in HAWX. And yes, how they did it was "ok". I just feel the developers needed to be more careful while they were balancing the game out.

And sorry MC, balance by it's very definition is not met in this game. One missile should not be significantly better in accuracy (for example) then the others. 100% Seriously? I do understand why they did it though, and landon is right in this regard (which was to equalize the playing field). More care should have taken.

MC, come on. It's a flight action game, as you stated. My Desert Storm model was simply used to highlight how the developers could have used real world statistics to make for a better arcade experience. It's little things like this that increase the longevity with the mass population. It's my guess that only the hardcore and trophy hunters remain now.

A tad bit extreme with the pink planes. But not even Ubisoft was that stupid. LOL

Anyways. Did I think the AAM's were over-powered? Yes. But did it stop me from using them? Negative. Anybody foolish to enter the merge with me while I was armed with them paid the price (It's why I saved them for last.)

Copy that. If the game had the options I wanted, I would have kept this title long after the platinum..

It can be balanced without having EVERY weapon 100% equally weighted. They all have benefits and limitations depending on the situation at hand. That IS balance...

AAM is not 100% (see above).

I don't know that unnecessarily over-complicating HAWX would have changed sales one bit and neither do you.

Of course, but it's also "extreme" to compare HAWX with reality or to cling to unrealistic expectations. As I said, there's a lot they "could" have done, it's still their choice and it's still a fun game.

Kill them before they kill you, that works for me...

Some people are never happy with what they have. I wish that the people that whined about "not getting the game they wanted in hindsight" would write their own flight game since they seem to think they know better than those that really can and do write games. Yes, I know it's not just games, there are always "armchair quarterbacks."


Realism isn't always better, imagine if HAWX was as hard to fly as the real planes?

Checkmate.

You're argument is that if you are not locked on, the AAM will not hit. While completely correct, I cannot prove my point any better than you just did.

Yes, one has to lock onto their enemy with AAM in order to hit with them, geez the limitations this missile has.


Smoke

Even if you have a lock it doesn't guarantee a hit.

Next?

...but, it's all on the enemy to make sure it misses.

If the enemy that you just fired your locked on AAM at doesn't use countermeasures, they will hit...yes in TDM, a guaranteed hit. The determining factor of whether or not a missile will connect should be the angle it is fired, not the timing of the enemy's countermeasure.

That is your missile doing your work for you. That is what makes it take no skill, it doesn't need a 100% accuracy to be cheap.

There is a reason that the game tallies your kills but not your lock ons.


Smoke

What do you think countermeasures are for? What, do you just sit there and wait for it? There's more than one way to beat a missile.

It takes "no skill" to whine about a legitimate weapon that the devs intended.

Too funny...