The F-35 is a decent replacement for the pre-F-22 planes but it should be *in addition* to more F-22s not instead of more F-22s...

I think these type discussions are fun and healthy to a degree, but I think the reality of the F22 is being missed,somewhat. Gates is a smart guy who two Presidents of opposing parties both trust with our nations defense. I'm sure he understands the Pentagons assessment of needing somewhere in the mid 200's of F22's for a strong force readiness. China and Russia are 7 years away from being able to mass produce their 5th Gen fighters, at which time we could easily ratchet up the production on new F22s if needed.

I myself am a political conservative and Desert Storm vet, and I don't have a (big) issue with cutting the CURRENT F22 production, as long as the SECDEF and Chiefs use the money on equally important defense programs. For all we know, there might be some big tech breakthroughs that in 10 years would render the ATF's obsolete and they might not want to build up something they know they will replace(don't think it's a stretch that the F22 might be old tech, with NASA and DARPA testing advanced Scramjet tech and blended wing designs. Remember, what WE can read about in the news is OLD news compared to classified programs. Hell, the Navy Railgun tests are posted on Youtube. Makes you wonder what we don't know about.)

Anyway, I think strong defense is the only reason we can still have these discussions openly. I think throughout history there have been many governments and civilizations that were dominating the world, and most all eventually fell to an enemy that had developed superior technology. I am a fan of Gates and I don't think he halted production on the F22 because we don't need F22's, it was because he felt we could use the money better elsewhere.

Of course no one man is infallible. We were just discussion a few weeks ago, another SECDEF who's opinion was cultivated by 2 presidents, Robert McNamara. He also was a sharp guy who had the countries best interests in mind.He just guessed wrong.

Ok, for all you negative people out there. Would you for once look at the cold hard facts about the F-22.
1. F-15 Replacement...The 15 has been around since the 70's and is aging, the frames are getting old and the fleet itself is aging. Also, why don't you all just take a gander at how many other countries have the F-15 and F-16 as part of their arsenal.

2. F-35 better....Yea right, a one engine jet better than a dual engine jet. Lets put it in idiot terms. If a car has 200 hp and a lot of torque, and a car has 400 hp and twice as much torque then which of the two is faster...both in top speed and acceleration...also about the F-35 with the cost being much lower in comparison to the 22, the technology that makes the 35 so cheap was in the R+D if the 22, the cost to make a 22 is compounded by all the research that went into it as well as production costs. If you were to have made the 35 first, then the 22 would be the cheap one as all the tech. would have already been found.

3. We OWN IT...We are the only one in the world with a firghter jet that has an 88-1 kill ratio. That is, for every 88 they lose, we lose 1...we are the sole owners of the 22 and its because of that fat that we havent used it but in patrolling. It is excessive force to the mission at hand as the Iraqui AF was destroyed in the first 36 hours by us. Now for those of you that are like exatly, take a gander at Russia's Su-35...It is better than the 15 and afraid of the 22...and as we are not exactly on great terms with those (not being sarcastic) wonderful people at times, it is something to think about.

All in all the 22 is amazing to see fly, just check it out sometime if you have a chance at an airshow...it truly does some amazing things and if you cant do that then watch vids of it on youtube. It truly is amazing...and for those of you doubters out there still...I am a 16 pilot and serve to protect your country so trust me when I say these planes are aging and fast and the 22 is the most amazing plane in the world.

quote:

Originally posted by eurospor:
Ok, for all you negative people out there. Would you for once look at the cold hard facts about the F-22.

actually... we have... countless times... and it's been mentioned thousands of times...

but you're missing another fact...

the outrageous pricetag and the current economical state of the united states...

say you have 100 000$/yr salary... and you see a Bugatti Veyron, amazing in every way imaginable, 1001 horses, 409km/h max speed, superb engineering, awesome jawdropping design, everything about it is amazing... but would you buy it? there's no reason not to! but oh wait! there is one! you're not rich enough...

While saving on the Bugattin Veyron, you decided to use that money to buy a yacht for 1.5 million. It ain't really better. In this case, we need to know what they did with the money to judge if it is better or not...

You can't really compare luxury items like cars and boats to the F-22 either. National defense *is* the job of the federal government and it isn't cheap. I'd much rather my tax dollars went to more F-22s than socialist obamacare...

quote:

Originally posted by Master_Cylinder:
You can't really compare luxury items like cars and boats to the F-22 either. National defense *is* the job of the federal government and it isn't cheap. I'd much rather my tax dollars went to more F-22s than socialist obamacare...

"YES WE CAN!" -Barrack Obama

Can we ruin America?

quote:

Originally posted by zedex26:
"YES WE CAN!" -Barrack Obama

Isn't this topic about the F-22 being canceled? Not left/right views of politics?

Honestly do anyone of you know and more importantly trust the people that are supposed to represent you?

If the Government is doing something stupid! Stand up and be heard, E-mail them, call them go to your state capital and let them know.

quote:

Originally posted by AncientAngel2K:
Isn't this topic about the F-22 being canceled? Not left/right views of politics?

Honestly do anyone of you know and more importantly trust the people that are supposed to represent you?

If the Government is doing something stupid! Stand up and be heard, E-mail them, call them go to your state capital and let them know.

The opinions on whether or not the F-22 should be canceled are often defined by left/right views. They're connected.

Not in my state...nor the White House for now.

Been there, done that. They don't seem to care much. (another good reason for term limits)

An exact Ditto for me as well.

I am beyond myth/****ed that our/my Government actually listens to the voice of its people. And I know I am one of many.

This country is more of an Corporation disguised an a Democracy.

quote:

Originally posted by AncientAngel2K:
This country is more of an Corporation disguised an a Democracy.

I wouldn't go that far but the left's trend towards socialism (and the vilification of corporations) is far more disturbing than the intended capitalist republic.

Why are so many right-wing people offended by the idea of a nation caring for all of its citizens? I mean, you'd think people who were pro-America, as the right claims so loudly, would be pro-Americans and not just pro-SOME-Americans. What IS America if not for the whole of all Americans? Nothing. A nation is its people, period.

So, why turn your backs on your fellow citizens? You may not agree with their opinions (of course, that's the beauty of that freedom you go on and on about, the right to disagree and have your own independent thinking free from harassment), but they ARE your fellow citizens, nonetheless.

And, correct me if I'm wrong, but the right claims to be fervently Christian, and one of the most important Christian tenets is "to love your neighbor.... What you do for the least of men, you do for me," etc. Care for the sick, feed the hungry, forgive your enemies, etc., and not refuse to do so simply because you can make more money if you skimp on many of these things. Turn a man away from feeding him simply because he can't afford it. Ruin another man simply because you stand to financially profit. I don't see Christians, I see a bunch of selfish, self-important people with little humanity and compassion that somehow manage to claim they are for family values and have higher morality with a straight face.

So, here we have some people clamoring for this big expensive piece of metal that supposedly will make our nation safer while ignoring the fact that this supposedly safe nation goes hungry, cannot possibly pay its exorbitant medical bills, cannot afford the cost of education that only the privileged do, etc. Each class looks only with contempt at the stratus below it. That's hardly patriotic, and besides, what good is a supposedly safe nation when the dangers within (crime, little education, poverty) are far more prevalent and ultimately ignored by those with the financial capability to actually do SOMEthing about it? Don't scoff. Put your money where your mouth is and help your fellow citizens. It doesn't mean give everything you've earned, but every little bit you help counts.

But, this is all my opinion. Cue: smirk. No, cue: rolling of eyes.

I have no problem helping people that are willing to help themselves, but for those who constantly want something for nothing, forget about it. I dropped a dime on someone who was getting food stamps from Michigan while working and living in Georgia just for those very reasons above. I do not want to feed those who just sit on their hind ends all day wanting welfare checks coming once a month. they can get a job if they really want to eat.

As far as health care, you really need to talk with those from England or even here in Holland where I am currently at. They do have "universal health care" but they pay 50% or more in taxes. In England, a scaffold builder will have to pay €500 a month to see a physical therapist as the doctors will not do any surgery. After 6 months, he has to buy private health care insurance at another €500 a month on top of that and then has to wait another 6 months before getting any surgery while still paying the €500 for physical therapy. Where is the savings on that? How about the twin women who both had double mastectomies due to the doctors not finding the cancer that ate up their breasts? Doesn't sound pleasant does it? Even Canadians bitch and moan about the inability to see a doctor (at least the ones I have talked with) when needed.

I agree that health care costs are outrageous and need to be reigned in, but I do not want the government offering free health care or even subsidized health care at my expense. I pay for health care already and I do not want my paycheck taxed even more (than it already is) to help pay for those who are to lazy to get off their *** and get a job. I also do not want to have to give up my insurance because of said extra taxes.

If you want such a system, you can pay for it out of your pocket, but stay out of mine. It's not contempt I have for those below me, it's disgust at those who do not wish to better themselves. I speak from experience as to having to start with no roof over my head at one point so do not give me the unpatriotic BS. Talk to me when you spend several nights in the back seat of a car where you work due to not being able to afford an apartment or even a room at the Y until you get a paycheck.

Well, I've been living out of a really cheap "residential" hotel for a while now. My power keeps shutting off (due to faulty wiring) nearly daily, the walls are paper thin, our neighbors sometimes get arrested for all kinds of things (violence, one guy was arrested for allegedly molesting little girls, we apparently had a prostitution ring busted out of here, etc.), and on and on. The place is a dump, but it's all my wife and I can afford for now. I lost my job due to the economy being as it is and haven't been able to find anything yet. It's frustrating. My wife got sick some time ago, and we couldn't afford the doctor's bill we got when she went to the E.R. Money's tight and we eat like crap because healthy food is too expensive. No kitchen, after all. Hell, just a mini-fridge that barely gets cold. Oh, and no, neither of us owns a car.

There was a period over ten years ago where I had to briefly live out of someone's garage. Yes, I do know how difficult things can be.

For the record, I don't do drugs. I don't even really drink. We've discussed this in another thread. I don't party. My wife and I are sedate, honest, hard-working people, but neither of us has any helping hands (family, friends). I mean, she has good relations with her family, I have good relations with a couple brothers and we both have friends, but no one is in the position to help, not that we'd be keen on the idea anyway. Point is, even for decent people, living in this nation can be difficult. Not everything falls into place just because your starting variables are there.

That said, I know about Australian social care thanks to my wife. I would advise anyone interested in topics like this to research their take. I've been to Sweden before. It might be expensive, but I can tell you, EVERYthing there seemed to smack of quality and comfort.

All I want out of our nation is a public option. We have a public option for the mail. We have a public option for reading books. And I'd like a public option for when people like my wife get sick and can't afford to see a doctor or take time off work.

Fancy cars and houses and yachts and whatever should be the domain of the privileged, but getting medical help should not. Getting a shot at a decent education should not, either.

Instead, it's a world of greed out there. For many people, paying a little more in taxes for things like these wouldn't see a massive change in lifestyles. Many people wouldn't even really miss the money. It's just an issue of principle for them. What's nothing to someone is everything to someone else. The thing I don't understand is that people are called on to join a military and potentially sacrifice their lives in a show of patriotism and to serve the people of this nation; yet, when asked for the same show of patriotism to serve the people of this nation with taxes that would specifically go toward lowering the cost of medical insurance and education, people refuse. Giving up your life is more acceptable to living but with slightly less pay? Yes, it's a sacrifice, but we do it to help other Americans. That IS the point in either scenario, isn't it? Besides, it's not like those in our military serve only SOME of the people. They serve ALL of us. They defend ALL of us. Then, what's the justification when some of THEM come back with psychological problems like PTSD? Do we have the same attitudes towards poor vets who are so messed up they're out on the streets with substance abuse problems? They served. Do they now not deserve the help they earned by defending the nation? We can't have this kind of thinking. It's not patriotic, and frankly, more importantly, it's not humane.

Besides, any Christian does not make distinctions between who does and does not receive help. Whether a man deserves it or not, the whole point of Christ was that he welcomed and loved everyone. Why don't I typically see an actual Christian attitude towards things like health care and education for all?

More towards the topic on hand....

I believe in a merit-based society. I believe in capitalism, but not as it stands currently. There needs to be responsibility with just how much greed is fostered and how it affects others in society. It must have limits and oversight. We live in a nation of freedom, correct? Yet, we still have laws, laws to limit just how "free" we can be. We can't go around smacking people in the face on the street without repercussion. There are limits to what we can and cannot do. Just as we cannot simply regulate ourselves (people just aren't that responsible), so, too, do the markets cannot regulate themselves. Vice always slips in. We have millions losing their jobs due to mismanagement and greed. We're in a situation where every dollar counts, and people are still talking about buying an expensive piece of machinery that's not needed at the moment? I wish I could afford a car. It would be extremely useful in traveling to work or doing errands or plenty of other things, but right now, I can't afford one. It would be stupid if I bought one at a time where my money should be used on more immediate necessities. When I'm better off and other vital things in my life are taken care of, then I can start thinking about that car. Same goes for this nation. An F-22 isn't going to make us as a whole smarter. It's not going to feed us. Truthfully, it's not even going to save nor defend us, not anytime soon, anyway. It's essentially going to sit in a hangar while we continue to starve, continue to work crappy jobs just to make ends meet, continue to suffer crimes, etc. As intelligent, rational, responsible adults, we have to make sensible decisions regarding just where our dollar goes. I don't think pushing for more F-22s at this time is sensible.